CultRantings

If there is any doubt about the mindset of a dedicated followers of Mike Peters, read these posts by one of his loyal, self-admitted excommunicated disciples.

There are approximately 101,000 words in 255 posts in the past year since "WirklichMir" started posting to factnet. There's a saying, if you find yourself in a whole the best way to get out is to STOP DIGGING.

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Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:37 pm:

Well Dennis, Jen, GottaPost, Cult_Fighter, UltimateTruthSeeker, FirstTruth and others... You asked for other former "members of the Indianapolis church" to write, so here goes: First a few things up front to help those with honest hearts. Everyone else that already has their minds made up... This probably isn't going to help, but... In an attempt to be completely truthful and honest, here are a few things to consider: (1) Of the 20 or so years folks under dispute here have made their homes in Indianapolis, I and my family have lived there for a total of about 4 years. That's roughly 20% of the time that church has existed. Of the various neighborhoods that people live in or have lived in over the years (yes, people there *do* live close enough in normal, modest homes just like millions of other Americans in order to CARE practically for one another, though many here on FactNyet have a different reading entirely on that) I have lived in three of them. One of those places (TF), Mr. Dennis lived in for his 5 week "visit." I say all this crazy, somewhat irrelevant stuff so that people know I wasn't there for some couple week visit. I *lived* there for years, right in the middle of it all, and as a result... (2) I personally know many of the people who have posted here both those of you who are taking a very adversarial and dim view of your time there as well as those who still live there. Some of you here on FactNyet I feel I know pretty well, which leads me to... Some VERY important additional points: (3) MIKE PETERS DID ***NOT*** ASK ME TO POST THIS nor did anyone in ANY of the cities mentioned in this thread. This is COMPLETELY 100% on my own. Mike did NOT ask me to do this. Mike did not see one single word here before I wrote it or posted it. Mike did not give his prior "approval" or "dissent" before making this post. Nor did anyone else from anywhere else. (4) What I will be posting here -- since YOU GUYS ASKED -- are MY OWN thoughts, MY OWN experiences, and MY OWN convictions of why *I* was asked to leave and also my first hand knowledge of persons on this so-called "list" that someone posted. There are reasons why we ALL needed to leave, including me and my family, that many here are not owning up to but instead seem to have allowed the bitterness of these years to fester up and DEFILE MANY as scripture declares it WILL when you don't deal with bitterness and SPECIFIC SIN. (The path of those that needed to leave, including myself, is not so "bright" as all here might be lead to think.) I'll provide my thoughts on that very obvious fact of bitterness here soon -- a topic you could possibly consider my "thesis" in reply to you all -- from the standpoint of it not mattering WHAT these guys did. If what they did was tied you up and dragged you behind a wagon over a gravel road while they read scriptures to you, the responses and the reactions here are distinctly NOT like Christ, the murdered and slaughtered Lamb, in the least. And since THAT is probably readily apparent to anyone with an honest heart that reads this thread in it's entirety, the only reason I even feel a need to write this is to present a little bit of the other side of the story from one that was asked to leave as well and has endured MANY of the same hurts and pains you all have. GottaPost wrote in one post "I haven't been the same since and I doubt I ever will be." I can readily relate to that. I understand the hurt, the pain, and the confusion. BUT... we all had chances to come out the other end with Christ-likeness which, I'm sorry to say, I see painfully lacking here. We'll talk about why I feel that way later.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:38 pm:

(5) I would like to say that I am not "taking sides" here; I aim only to present to you what happened to me and others I have first-hand knowledge of as well as how I worked through it. But I also realize it would be foolish for me to think that any of you with your minds already made up are going to care. Anyone here writing in "support" of "Indy" is going to be vilified no matter WHAT he or she says and so I am prepared for the various kinds of responses I am likely to receive over this recounting. So be it. (6) Many here -- some who never even have BEEN to Indy! -- have been bold enough to "call out" various different people there and make other bold statements about "life there," some persons of which were never even involved at the front part of this thread or were originally under any kind of question. I hope since you are willing to be so candid in your efforts to unveil "the truth" by naming innocent names that you would be willing to allow me to be just as candid in unveiling a few "truths" that I find conspicuously left out in these postings. I see a lot of one-way street paving here that no one has either had the guts to point out (or at least no one outside of Indy), no one can see, or no one CARES or WANTS to see. (This use of REAL NAMES of innocent people is just one example OF MANY here in this thread of employment of one-way, self-serving, convenient logic and how people have decided to "play" here. As long as the predetermined "end justifies the means," it's all fair game. Dennis, whose name was never mentioned (he volunteered his own name) and his wife have a VOLCANIC REACTION when he is mentioned. When FirstTruth posts a list of REAL names, or GottaPost links to a PICTURE of all things and a real name.... NO REACTION. I thought that is EXACTLY how you felt your name was dragged into the mud, Dennis? And your stated "deep care" for the people who used to live in Indy... wouldn't/shouldn't that drive you to CHASTISE FirstTruth and GottaPost for their actions in posting real names? Hmmm... But since it's not YOU being dragged through the mud and it serves your purposes, all the better. Not mentioned people here throwing Matthew 23 around when convenient, etc.) Which brings me to the last two introductory points... (7) I don't live there NOW and I haven't lived there or been there for over 3 years. Nor do I live in ANY of the other places mentioned in this thread. So that means I can only recount what I saw when I was there, but my period of time there does encompass a first-hand knowledge of many people here and on "the list" that was presented a few posts back as I've already stated. (8) Most of what I say here is going to be completely restricted (as I stated in point #4 above) to either what I saw there (including from some of you guys here on FactNyet... sorry, but you asked!) or what you yourselves have already stated here for the world to see. Finally, I'm probably a FOOL for even venturing to do this, but a combination of (1) the out and out LIES about people in Indianapolis (which I don't even have time to touch on or attempt to correct here based on what I know personally, nor would it do any good), (2) the continual employment of one-way, convenient, self-serving "logic" and street paving as well as details conveniently left out about those that HAVE left, and (3) my own rescue over bitterness and caving in to the effects of my own sins, had I not repented (some of my own sins I consider worse than any thus far listed here), cause me to venture that this might help SOMEONE with the record set just a little more straight.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:40 pm:

First I'd like to address a few of you: Jen: I have absolutely nothing against you, and I can appreciate your faithfulness to your husband, which is apparent throughout this thread. I'm sure that was important to him in the healing process since it's apparent his sin hurt him more than it hurt you as scripture says ("...he who unites himself... ...sins against his own body..."). Many women would not "bear up" under such revelation and I share everyone else's joy that it isn't that way any more. But Jen... You were NEVER IN INDY. The only insight you have into what happened there is what Denny told you. It should be obvious to EVERYONE reading this that your "view" of Indy is reduced to a SINGLE view and that that person's views -- Denny's! -- are WELL COMPREHENDED throughout. Whether or not Denny happens to be "right" or "wrong" is, as they would say in a court of law, "immaterial" or "immaterial evidence." Your testimony in a court of law would be invalid and thrown out immediately since you cannot possibly have an objective view or first hand knowledge of the events, places, and persons under discussion here. You are in no position to comment, declare, attempt to detail, help others, or anything else like that. That's just the facts, Jen, as ANY court of law in this country would view it. I'm not trying to be ugly and your faithfulness as I said is commendable to some degree and certainly understandable. I'm not saying you can't post here any more because you have every right to. But in examination of any REAL evidence (which everyone is calling for here!), your opinion is in fact tainted even if Denny is correct in everything he says. Does that make sense? If not, I'm sure it will make sense to many others reading this, so it's worth pointing out. Your "testimony" and so-called (and self-established, I might add) "expertise" -- other than that restricted to your husband at the time and from the time you first met him -- would be THROWN out in court (and should be here by anyone reading here with a mind towards what is RIGHT), including your recounting of what he did or didn't do before you met him even if he is telling the complete truth (which I am not implying he is not). That's JUST the way it would be in a court of law if we really cared about getting to the truth. And I'm assuming everyone here is aiming for that since that seems to be the common rallying cry here, with some even choosing names like "UltimateTruthSeeker." Does this make sense to you, UltimateTruthSeeker? Is that what you REALLY want? FirstTruth? You too? This is also worth pointing out because in *God's* court, we're dealing with some very, very serious stuff -- some very serious accusations. lies, and omissions of truth (called "withholding of evidence" in a court of law -- a punishable offense). And if we're going to be diving into people's lives, then we need to apply some very serious rules. Rules that run BOTH WAYS. Frankly folks, it's been an absolute free-for-all in here, and you all can't have it both ways. You can't "call on witnesses" as you have done, and not play by fair and legal rules that even U.S. judges employ in courts of law high and low all over this land every single day. (But here? It's open season...)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:41 pm:

Denny: I'd like to address a little bit of the "one way street paving" on your part... You say that Mike and the others in Indy couldn't POSSIBLY have obtained an inside and clear view of your life since you were only in Indy for 5 weeks. Okay... fine. THEN HOW COME **YOU*** CAN CLAIM THAT SAME RIGHT TO HAVE AN INSIDE, OBJECTIVE AND ALL-REVEALING VIEW OF THEM based on the same length of exposure???? That seems a little one-sided to me. You have the right to post writing after writing on this thread for the whole world to see, set up email addresses and phone numbers or what have you to "help others see the evils in Indy" but you at the same time disallow them to hold the same right with you. That can't be, dude. If you guys were together for the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME, then you can't claim a right that you are denying them (vehemently, I might add). You can't possibly have a better more penetrating, more objective and true view of them that they had of you. IF that is your stance and premise. But this thread is absolutely FILLED with your writings made on that slight-of-hand premise alone!!! In a court of law in this country using this very same reasoning (instead of the one-way, self-serving logic you are employing), every "Objection!" you have raised based on that premise would be over-ruled. Sorry dude, but you can't have it both ways. Now for you PERSONALLY... I was in TF when you lived there. I have never, ever, even when I lived there had one single initiated conversation with anyone about you, just so that's clear. No one has ever told me anything about "what you did." I was not in Mike's basement when you did or did not proclaim yourself as a "whatever" or practice like you were in a rock band with an alter call. So I can neither confirm nor deny any of it. But I *can* say that: I noticed an uncanny pre-occupation with Mike Peters while you were there. It doesn't really matter whether you confirm or deny it. I'm telling you what my own over-riding, first-hand, eye witness impression was, and that DOES count for something since I was THERE. People there respect Mike (as well as several others) as a leader, but I personally knew of no one else there that was as PRE-OCCUPIED with him as you were. Specific "prayer requests" to "help Mike" and talk of "Mike" was very frequent with you just about any time we got together in TF. If you are going to insinuate that others there are pre-occupied and "under his spell" then I would have to say that my own personal impression of you was that that was a pre-dominate feature during your brief time there. I find it supremely ironic that having never spoken directly with you, but having been in NUMEROUS meeting and living room situations with you that his name was on your lips A LOT. In a very weird and uncomfortable way. (Why would we all have been "uncomfortable" with Dennis' level of pre-occupation if we "adored" and "venerated" Mike?) And many others expressed similar feelings that something was very weird and unsettling about that. (And when I say no one ever spoke to me about you, I mean no one ever came up to me and said, "Hey, watch out for that dude." or "Hey did you know Denny did such and such?" No one ever spoke behind your back to me unsolicited. That is, your "sins" were never discussed nor were leading conversations ever initiated with me about you while you were there.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:43 pm:

It's easy to predict what your response to this might be and that is that you might admit that that was ONCE your disposition, but now it most certainly is not how you feel. I think even THAT response could be debated based on the fact that: - At least one of the moderators got on this thread 40-50 posts back and asked you point blank: "Ah, Denny... Do you think you've made your point already?" HIS honest and objective impression seemed to be that your rabid and vehement and constant postings were just a little bit much and that you have an unhealthy pre-occupation with this person even now. That's the view of someone with nothing at stake in this thread, seemingly. - You personally admit (here in FactNyet) to stewing over this for 12 years and then circling back to finding out where Mike was, what he was doing, and who he might be with. You wrote that, dude. That seems a little incriminating to me. In a court of law, again (if we can keep reducing this down to a level where at least there exists SOME potential of little or no dispute), based on that statement and and the "spirit" of your writings, you seem very pre-occupied with a certain individual, who has made every attempt to leave you alone these 12 years, in a weird and alarming sort of way. So maybe it would be wiser to "back off" a little on those others you accuse of being pre-occupied and "under the spell" of Mike, especially when then and now, your pre-occupation was and is MOST unsettling and distinctly abnormal and has been exhibited WAY MORE than anyone else I know there or not there. I've got nothing against you, Dennis, and I barely know you. But those are my honest, first-hand, eye witness impressions of how you carried yourself IN PUBLIC (for many eyes to see) on NUMEROUS occasions while you were in Indy. And your use here of one-way, self-serving, unfair "logic" about who can be an "expert" on who after just 5 weeks is here for everyone to see. I don't care how many scriptures you quote here, I don't know how anyone (including yourself) can trust someone that weighs important matters like other people's lives using that kind of slight-of-hand logic and approach. You have not extended here the same courtesy you've asked of the folks in Indy. It's interesting that someone here ventured to immediately PASTE Mike Peters with a "scripture" about "Where there are many words, sin is not absent" and yet if I ran this thread through a word count, what would be the word-count "weight" on your side and those with you "in spirit?"

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:45 pm:

Let's talk about a few other details in some other lives here that I know personally that are being (I hope not pre-meditated) left out of the picture being painted here for the world to see... And we'll cover my sins too. Let's leave nothing out so the picture is CLEAR concerning those that left. GottaPost: Okay, we'll just stick with your anonymous "GottaPost" name. I'll guard the "integrity" of your personal choice in using a pseudonym even though you've chosen not to guard the lives and integrity of other real people, but rather have made a choice to name real names, link to pictures, and do other really disgusting things out of your unresolved hurt and confusion, I am very sad to see and read... with real people who have not only left you alone over the years to DO WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO (which has been one of the ROOT ISSUES for why you aren't "in Indy" any more according to my OWN EXPERIENCE with you), but who have also spent time, money and further energy on you, your wife and children (when they didn't HAVE to, but CHOSE to anyway!) on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS even after you left that city. Something folks here aren't likely to know about. Folks, I know this because I lived right next door to GottaPost in a small Southwestern city in Ohio for 18 months as well as knew GottaPost a little bit while he and his wife and family lived in Indy. GottaPost, my own experience with you, though I promise I love you still ("sweet are the words of an enemy, but bitter are the words of a FRIEND" since we're all "into" the Psalms here...), is that you were always your own final judge about any matter in your life. Serious important issues in your life always ended up "disputable" TO YOU. You were the sole judge and "seer" of your life and the very blatantly obvious elements others were seeing. It's not only hard to live with someone like that (and believe me, it was), it's down-right contrary to many scriptures. Now I wasn't in Indy when you were asked to leave. But I lived with you for 18 months, brother, and there was nothing but continual problems. Constant bickering, disputing, chaos, confusion, smoke-screens, anger, table-turning and a whole lot of not listening. And I mean BOTH OF US, okay?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:47 pm:

If any of you out there actually LIVED with GottaPost, you would discover all this and more very quickly. If you don't have any convictions about anything, then GottaPost would make a fine "Christian friend." But if you have a conviction about ANYTHING... The point is, it's CLEAR IN SCRIPTURE in MANY PLACES (and ironically in the very scripture you used most) that Jesus made a way -- COMMANDED "a way" -- a path to follow when there are questions about sin or what someone might think is sin, even if they are wrong (Matthew 18, Hebrews 3, Romans 14, and many other places). You were never truly and 100% open to that process, especially in situations involving YOU. How INCREDIBLY IRONIC, isn't it, that you accuse Mike of the same disposition when anyone that has EVER lived with you and really gotten to know you in at least two different cities (DOZENS of people) has come to that SAME conclusion about YOU!!!!????? And your life in Indy and when I lived with you was such that if YOU thought something was disputable, then it was, and if it wasn't then you were just being "victimized." (Do we need to talk about and apply your zeal for hypocrisy here too since most of your posts here direct this same kind of sentiment and accusation in Mike's direction, even if that *were* true about him?) Instead, simple questions and observations about nearly ANY real thing in your life became such an issue for you that you were completely outside of any possibility of relationship. Since you felt instantly "victimized" in Ohio as you did in Indy on nearly ANY topic brought to you, you were released to go and live however you wanted to live both in Indy and in Ohio. No pressure. People backed out and gave you the space you clearly wanted and needed.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:48 pm:

And yet, when we HAD our little issues in Ohio (even after you left Indy!), whose house was visited first by Mike when he generously gave his time to you when YOU WROTE AND ASKED FOR HIM TO COME? I've been privy to emails he sent addressed to both of us and his care for you and pre-occupation with you and your family's welfare was VERY evident to me YEARS after you and I both left Indy. No one is hearing about stuff like that. What I hear, GottaPost, to sum up your "thoughts" offered here is basically, "He had the goods on me, why can't I have the goods on him???" I hear and have seen first hand in your life over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME anger and pride and ambition, and you're bitter and FRUSTRATED that you've not been able to have your way with people who aren't going to be bullied by you and your (mis)use of Romans 14 and other scriptures so we can all just be "happy" have "a good worship time" and not address SERIOUS ISSUES. Some of which were PUBLICLY DANGEROUS and could have EASILY involved (and I think one time DID involve) the police, for heavens sake!!! Do I need to mention specific instances like the time you stopped a car in the middle of the road on your street and CURSED OUT the driver in front of your CHILDREN, who were absolutely HORRIFIED at what they saw on display? This was semi-regular stuff with you, man!! That doesn't sound like "leadership" material to me; not yet anyway, though I would never say you COULDN'T BE. But NOT when the qualifications for leadership according to Acts, Titus, Timothy and other places are that one be OBSERVABLY FULL of the Holy Spirit and Wisdom and Galatians gives us a clear picture that that is NOT being full of the HS and Wisdom. Your OWN CHILDREN, both the ones saved and unsaved at the time, who witnessed that incident knew and expressed to me how UNWISE *THAT* one incident was. And if the police had seen it, you would likely have been arrested based on how your children recounted it to me since I'm leaving out some details even on THAT incident. Do you care that you endangered the custody of your own children by that kind of shenanigan as well as OTHER things you've done that I'll also refrain from mentioning here???

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:50 pm:

And just so there isn't any "table-turning" about "See?! See how your sins are recounted and brought up to 'keep you down' everyone!" Remember that Galatians, Acts, Timothy, etc. COMMANDS us all to NOT ALLOW someone like that to be a "leader" until that stuff is clearly and observably absent in your life. So it's not "Mike" that's keeping/kept you down, but those kinds of sins which you're not letting everyone else here see (which is EXACTLY why places like this are dark, dark, dark, "cloak and dagger" places where more work for satan is carried out than for God, though I'm sure through FactNyet *some* are helped.) See, here on FactNyet, no one knows that you have (had? I hope?) anger problems observable to your own children and those who have TRIED desperately to live with you, along with pride, ambition, bitterness, re-occurring fits of rage, and other specifics I could go into but won't because I'm only trying to help you and others understand why you left Indy in the first place. You wanted to live how you wanted to live, be a leader but not be accountable to leaders (sounds a lot like one-way street paving again to me), and you were simply released to do that. No one is shielding you from past relationships rather more than likely what has happened is those that SEE past some of your smoke-screens (and MINE!! -- remember the letter to you detailing how DECEITFUL I was?? See, it's not "just you"!!) simply can't bear to continue the charade with you any longer. It's not "Mike" telling them to "leave you alone" but rather they themselves don't want to be around you any more!!! I know all that's hard to hear, brother, but your expressed interest in the truth here should provide me some room to say it. You can't live how you want to live (ungodly) and still maintain "Godly" relationships and have it both ways. Sin KILLS relationships, both the Bible and the evening news are clear about that. And remember your propensity to "feel victimized" and yet you lowered yourself here to naming real names and pointing out real faces on web sites out of bitterness and pride. Never mind that that guy you specifically pointed out "in picture" also drove over 100+ miles once to see you in Ohio, taking time off work and away from HIS family to come see you YEARS AFTER you left Indy because you asked him to, but no one knows about that either. So much for "cut off" relationships... I've known him for almost 30 years, and I know he'd do it AGAIN if he thought there was half-a-nickel's chance it would help you overcome these long-running issues in your life. But no one here still knows who you really are (doubly so, huh?) since I never used your real name.......

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:51 pm:

Others on that "list" that someone posted... Again not naming names, but I've lived with a lot of them, though I don't know all of them. Some of them have actually lived in my home or I in theirs. There's not one single person on that list that I personally haven't observed deep spiritual problems exhibited, including myself. Some of the problems, issues and REOCCURRING sins that persons on that list (as well as some left off that list)exhibited on SPECIFIC occasions that I myself saw or know about from first-hand, eye witness experience: - Overt jealousy, anger and fits of rage (melt-downs and anger of such degree as I have never seen before, some right in my living room) by several on that list (and I'm not talking again about GottaPost). - Leaving of spouse and children and engagement in adultery. (But now, that's okay. Sandi Pattie and others do it to "augment" their spiritual "singing careers", so why worry? Adultery and putting away your husband for all kinds of reasons, esp. to be with someone "more spiritual" is okay now...) - Gross and perverted sexual sins -- "impurity" as Paul put it -- that even pagans would frown upon. - Seduction that culminated in physical intimacy. - Visits to porn video stores, internet porn, and watching porn. - Continued, secretive, watching of some of the trashy-est, vilest television one can possible watch short of going to a video store. I'm not talking about "hiding things" from others there, but hiding from and hurting one's spouse and children. - Secret relationships at work and other places with members of the opposite sex kept (eg. lied about) from spouses, children, and loving brothers and sisters. - Sensual attitudes, overt comments, overt flirting, innuendos, and other displays of conduct towards members of the opposite sex both in the church and at work (MARRIED women, single women, and young girls) that would warrant a sexual harassment case if done and reported in a work environment. - Selfish ambition and big-time, unmistakable pride (are we going to call that a SIN folks and a serious one at that since GOD OPPOSES THE PROUD???? Are we???) - Selfish, reckless endangerment of one's self (the potential for personal, self-inflicted harm was involved) and other people around them by several on the list. - Selfish, reckless endangerment of one's family and/or children, some involving investigative work by the law. - Emotional adultery with multiple women such that the spouse involved nearly had a mental break down. Done several times. - Shoplifting. - Forgery - Fraud

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:53 pm:

The list could go on and get more specific. And this list does NOT count all the lies, cover-ups, deceptions and smoke-screens (where do people who continue to LIE and DECEIVE end up???) employed to cover UP all that stuff and make everyone think they were "okay." (I was probably one of the worst liars and cover up artists in Indy at the time, I'm very sorry to say!) I can personally tie specific, MULTIPLE incidents of these "behaviors" (no one here on FactNyet seems to like the word "sin" really) to specific persons on that list as well as those left off the list. My own personal sins are IN the list above. These things were not isolated incidents, but went on and on and on and on... For YEARS people tried to help, talk to, intervene, be sensitive to, etc. ALL these things. Not once that I know about did someone commit even these outrageous crimes/sins were those persons were asked to leave "on the spot." (Again, that I know about.) This kind of activity when on for YEARS by people on that list. And again, what isn't going to be stated by GottaPost, Cult_Fighter, FirstTruth, Dennis, and others (who may even show up here later) that these people, including me and my family, were almost ALL given 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th "chances" in other cities, other places, other occasions, often with an effort made to "relink" previous relationships from Indy (GottaPost and others are so concerned about "cut off" relationships, when the record speaks otherwise as I can personally attest in at least HALF of the cases mentioned above and some not mentioned, including in his case), and on almost every occasion the "issues" above resurfaced in those other cities and blew up those opportunities to reconnect and live in love and in Christ together. PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO GIVE UP THEIR SINS -- THOSE SPECIFIC SINS LISTED ABOVE -- FOLKS. COME ON!!!! Am I really here on a so-called "Christian board" trying to convince people who call themselves "Christians," "UltimateTruthSeeker," "FirstTruth," and other such names that THESE ARE *SERIOUS* SINS?????!!!!! Is this FOR REAL? When I have filthy-minded, sin-hardened, pagan bosses at work that have better discernment, judgment, and conclusions about where this kind of behavior leads than anyone here appears to have or CARE about (and also how to verify and sort it out!!)? Did you know that if you commited adultery or fornicated with someone at work or were seen out with a prostitute just once even now in this ultra-decadent and hell-bent generation, it could at least alter your career at work if it became known!!!!??? And you want to vilify these people or get upset when they throw up a word of caution and pause??? This really can't be real. And if you came BACK to work after 12 years to "hunt down" someone that did act on your impropriety at work, you'd have the police at your door so quick...!! And Mike offers a "peep" and he gets PASTED??? WOW. Only in America where we have the "religious freedom" to turn facts inside out however we want on "free internet boards" like FactNyet..........

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:54 pm:

With regard to all the extra chances... I personally have had literally THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS spent on me by the folks in Indianapolis after I left (way more than when I was there), and they never ever even saw my face when doing it or even offered a HINT that I owed them anything in return. It even took me years to realize that that had even happened (1) because it was done in secret and out of care, or (2) because I was still so consumed with myself that I didn't notice. Multiply that by the names on the list that was offered and you'll begin to see why Mike and others there have NO MONEY. Some people are without a doubt still paying on CREDIT CARD DEBT WITH INTEREST for money spent on wrecked lives, hoping against ALL HOPE that there would be CHANGE in each and EVERY situation. And I have no idea what they did because they WON'T TALK ABOUT IT. So where's the "hook" in the so-called "love bombing"??? It's been pretty expensive for them, folks.... What a HUGE price to pay to "hook" and "love bomb" people. If they did this to just me and one other person on the list above, then they've spent over $10,000 I can say that much, and I haven't seen one of them for over 3 years. So even with all the JUNK and RIDICULOUS SIN, when people were asked to leave, there was compassion and concern for how that might impact those people financially and situationally. So it was never just some uncompassionate "kick out." I personally have had people there move my rather large family from from Indy to the East Coast, some 900 miles away, not only at their own financial expense (which was THOUSANDS of dollars in rental truck, gas, food, and hotel), but also at the expense of their time with their families at home (four days on the road), hauling people all over the United States, their "holiday time" (time off work they took to move someone with my kind of problems at the time, instead of using that time for their families), and their pay at work. That one move to the East Coast was at least $5000 by my estimate, maybe more since several brothers made that trip. (One brother with two jobs and 5 mouths to feed at home, working 80 hours a week usually, injured his back during my move. That didn't help HIM too much, did it?) That's one of 4-5 moves people have made with me and just for me, at THEIR expense. (Here where I live in a typical "church" setting to contrast a little bit, I can't even get people to move a few pieces of heavy furniture for 15 minutes, immediately after a "Bible" study, but hey... You guys go ahead and keep defending the "norm" out there.... :-( )

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 5:55 pm:

That kind of thing, I know verifiably (because some of those moves collectively involved other people on the list that was shared, so I've lived with a good number of them, in spite of all our collective "ills" and sinful tendencies) has been done at least once if not more in EVERY CASE I know about on that list. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars people. Now you can call that "love bombing" if you want. I call it just plain stupid when you look at it one way. All of us with serious sins against one another, God, Jesus and in some cases the law of the land, and people in Indy are putting expenses on high interest credit cards to help us.... If you want to call people there weird and vilify them, do it for that kind of stuff, because no one I know in America, Christian or not, spends their money and "personal vacation time" THAT "stupidly." Well, folks, I dare say that none of what I've written thus far will likely ever make it into that "book" that some of you are compiling. But thems the facts as I myself saw them and lived them, just BRIEFLY touching all the sin, help, care, tears, pain, money, people and events. If you all want to continue to believe everything "bad" that's been posted here, that's entirely your business. It sounds a great deal to me like that's what a lot of you are in fact going to do. But for those here really interested in the Truth, those things really happened, and they should and I trust will be factored into the equation of what's going on in the capital of Indiana and the people there. An end needs to be put to all this one-way street paving and self-serving employment of slight-of-hand rules dictating how we're all going to play here. If you want the truth, some pretty atrocious things have been done by those who used to live there on that list (some of it requiring POLICE intervention), but I doubt you'll ever hear it from them. But that's the way things go in FactNyet-land... I never did get around to describing the tremendous hurt, confusion and other things satan had the audacity to throw at me in light of all these things (all my ridiculous sins) I've listed above, how I worked through them, and WHY all this junk posted here is SO UN-CHRISTLIKE. But I'll be back later for that story for those who really care. I really can empathize with those who have posted here. The pain has been other-worldly at times, but there IS A WAY OUT, and it's NOT what Dennis, Jen, FirstTruth and UltimateTruthSeeker are suggesting with the bitter-pill medications and un-Christlike retaliatory spirits they are offering here. GottaRun for now... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 7:58 pm:

PS. One slight amendment/retraction to one thing I said. I said that there was not one single person on that list that was posted in which I did not, myself, see serious spiritual problems exhibited. That's not enitrely true. Some of the persons on that list had very fine, surrendered walks with God, but were unfortunately impacted by the sins of their spouse. I mentioned spousal issues in my list. So, not *everyone* in that list had problems since the poster mentioned married couples. But again, that's what sin does -- it affects the relationships of those around us, and the spouses weren't the only ones to pay. No one here knows about the tears people in Indy have exhibited over emotional attachments they've made to US that had to leave. I mentioned one guy I knew for 30 years that I almost never see or talk to any more (entirely my fault). No one seems concerned for HIS feelings, just the people who had to leave because they wouldn't (at the time -- hopefully more have changed) stop sinning. But I digress. I can't cover everything, esp. when it's not likely to matter. But it seems worthwhile and important to point out and make that correction about those spouses who WERE walking with God and got slammed in the door by their spouse's sins. -co

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 12:23 pm:

Okay folks, I promised myself I wasn't going to get SUCKED into this ridiculous mess, and it's clear to me that folks here are MORE THAN WILLING to "spin the wheel" and "try their luck" BLUFFING like everyone here reading this is NAIVE, as NO SENSE, are COWARDS and general BAFFOONS. There is WAY MORE EVIDENCE than anyone else here is going to be ARM-TWISTED into presenting because for some crazy reason (sometimes called "compassion") we still try to protect people that sin and operate under the COVER OF DARKNESS, be it with anonymous names (for themselves only -- but real names for everyone else, some of which DESPITE their sins, may not even realize their names were posted there, last names spelled out or not!) or their MODE OF EXIT. Jen, maybe just maybe Dennis HASN'T BEEN completely honest with you after all???? Maybe he never told you his MODE OF EXIT from Indianapolis??? It JUST SO HAPPENS that *I*, out of 250-300 people in Indianapolis at the time, was the ONLY EYE WITNESS to exactly HOW Dennis left and just WHY "he wasn't helped." Dennis left under the cover and cloak of DARKNESS. While everyone ELSE (all 250-300 people) was in a meeting in another part of town after dark (sometime between 8-10PM), Dennis, PREMEDITATEDLY CHOOSING THIS TIME!!!!!, backed his car up to the apartment he was staying in in TF (someone GRACIOUSLY had opened their home to him with his wife and 1 year old child) and loaded up his stuff and LEFT. He didn't tell anyone where he was going and he didn't even have the COURTESY to mention anything AT ALL about this to the people who had extended hospitality to him. I had come back to the TF apartments to get something I forgot and WITNESSED THIS ENTIRE THING myself. I called the person he was staying with because I was concerned there was a problem (remember, I didn't know Dennis PERSONALLY very well), and the person he was staying with was VERY concerned and had NO IDEA that Dennis had intended to do this. The consensus was, SADLY, to just let Dennis be. SO JEN!!!!! Why don't you get a hold of Dennis and SEE IF HE'LL TELL YOU THE TRUTH about exactly HOW he left Indy!!! It was a little hard to help him when he wasn't home and neither was any of his stuff when everyone else got back from the meeting on the other side of town!!!! You need to stop digging your own grave here, again PRESUMING that everyone here is so naive to the FACTS of what happened to Dennis and everyone else we've discussed. Your little "question" (accusation?) and the answer I am providing of what DID happen again casts some serious doubt on just exactly how truthful Dennis HAS been with you about his past life and again just how "helpful" you actually can be to ANYONE when it comes to questions about "Indianapolis".... :-( Later... ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, June 09, 2006 - 1:16 pm:

Cult_Fighter, The QUESTION was in fact asked by Jen "Why wasn't Dennis helped?" and that QUESTION was ANSWERED (definitively and very revealingly, I might add). If it was a "sideshow" it was one that Jen brought up, not me, so you might take that up with her. Meanwhile, it's clear, as I stated in my original post that nothing anyone writes here is going to matter anyway (even if someone posts information on "three churches" or whatever else which is another reason why you aren't going to get your answers to that question as well as others, I would imagine), so, with nothing more to accomplish here, I'm signing off for a good long while. Goodbye...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:23 pm:

All: I know I said wouldn't be back for a while, but after I left, two or three things kinda made me feel I signed off a bit prematurely: (1) I did indicate earlier I would share with others HOW I overcame the pain, hurt, suffering and confusion of being asked to leave Indianapolis. I did have to bear all that, as others did here too. So I think describing the resolution of all that would be of interest and may, at the same time as I describe that, actually "answer" some of the "facts" some people keep asking about concerning "what goes on in Indy?" Maybe this will help? (2) I wasn't entirely comfortable with the "energy" in my last note to Jen about Dennis' mode of exit. Jen, I'm sorry about that. Any thing that is not like Jesus or could be taken higher, NEEDS to be. And I certainly want to learn more and more how to be as soft and kind as He was yet never yielding in righteousness and Truth. The facts I presented were correct (that was in fact Dennis' mode of exit that I personally observed, confusion about the exact apartment arrangement aside), but the maybe spirit wasn't quite as it could have been. (3) And in coming back, I did see your touching note, Jen. I feel that that really puts a "cap" on this thread. I understand and empathize with you on your feelings. It's *hard*, I know, when you feel someone or someones you love are being entirely misunderstood. The TRUTH aside from our emotions may sometimes bear out something different we need to feel (I've been in the same boat, before and it's not easy), but our emotions play. That's God's test to see if we love HIM more than our own relationships or "feelings" (reference Abraham and Issac, Moses and Korah, Hannah and Samuel, David and Absolom, and many, many more). It takes courage. In the end, it was people I loved who (continued to!) love me, what they REALLY were/are like (that I absolutely could NOT deny), and my own final coming face to face with my own sins that allowed me to really avoid bitterness altogether (I don't know that I ever felt BITTER??? just pain and confusion...) and start living free, really maybe for the first time ever. Remember again... I was in Indianapolis for four years and lived right in the middle of it. Here's what it was like. Since there was NEVER any ability for me to deny this, even in the midst of delusional sin, keeping these facts from being altered (though the enemy did try, believe me), helped TREMENDOUSLY. Over the years, as I "replayed" over and over in my head, situations and teachings and people's attitudes, and people's care and comments and HOW they graciously dealt with problems, I felt like the guys on the road to Emmaus -- "Was not my heart burning within me when I heard __________?" (fill in the blank with many very touching and spiritually uplifting teachings and moments there), or the men who said YEARS after they had been with Jesus and He had resurrected: "We can't stop talking [and thinking] about the things we've seen and heard!"

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:25 pm:

A QUICK, DAILY SNAPSHOT On any given day in Indianapolis -- a weekday for example, most of the men get up and head out to work. Just like everyone else in America. Engineers, consultants, medical personnel, business men, programmers, accountants, project managers, landscapers, contractors, janitors -- you name it. The types of professionals run the gammut. All normal stuff. (I was then and still am a consultant in the computer industry and have worked for GE, Compaq, HP, Raytheon, the Department of Defense, etc. Regular stuff.) Some work at local print shops, some work for IBM, some people run their own contracting and landscaping businesses.... One of the big things on "normal daily stuff" however is something we all realized YEARS ago that was SO PRACTICAL and helpful... If I need to ride to downtown Indy to clock in at IBM, and YOU need to ride to downtown Indy to clock in at IPL (Indiana Power & Light), hey, here's an idea -- why don't we ride together? :-) We can pray together on the way down for our coworkers, we can pray for our children left at home to be taught during the day, our wives as they interact during the day, listen to a teaching tape, use that time to ask brothers for help with loving our spouses, or children, or coworkers better, or just sing together to Jesus and express our gratitude as we make the 30 minute commute. And why not do lunch together as often as we can (some may not be able to due to work sitations -- no biggie!) and re-"levelset" with one another and Jesus at least once during the day?? If we can. If not, we go on working a normal work day... (Not to imply that other "churches" don't have men that carpool or regularly eat lunch, but something like that was not MY normal experience even in other "church" situations (and I've been in MANY), especially where ALL the men "think" like that. 100%. Usually everyone basically lives their own lives, and shows up someplace once a week, shakes hands, and we'll see you again next week. Even if we were to work in the same building together! :-/ And if we DID carpool or eat lunch or what have you, the chances of anyone being vulnerable during the 30 minute commute and saying something like "Umm, guys, can we talk? I was just ugly and impatient with my wife on the way out the door... :-(" were VERY remote and would at best make at least someone in the car "uncomfortable." But in Indy, that's normal stuff. We welcomed it.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:26 pm:

During the day, the children are taught by the women -- some of which have "professional" degrees having gone through engineering schools or nursing schools or schools of business, etc. (some of them considered "prestegious" according to the world's standards, not that anyone there "cares" or "values" it that way themselves) All fairly normal stuff. We just don't think it's a very wise idea to have our children taught by the "Philistines" so everyone teachs the children at home. What a great way to put those studies in engineering, chemistry, accounting, calculus, business simulations, history, and other topics studied for those college degrees to use! ;-) And we're all thankful we live in a country that considers "home schooling" a fine, normal, legal and healthy way to train your children, just like so many other believers and non-believers in this country. The women during the day also "think outside the box"... Three families close together on the same block may share 11 children between them. One is a nurse, one is a civil engineer, and one is an accountant (by training). One notices maybe from a previous night over eating together and listening to a teaching tape with all the family members gathered that the laundry was a little piled up in that household, so... Why don't we today, you bring your piled up laundry over and use my extra capacity machine, we'll take turns loading, washing, drying and folding each others laundry while you and I take turns solving those tough algebra, chemistry and history problems the children have been working on this week? Maybe we'll take a break at 3PM to put the little teenie ones down for a nap, give the other children a break from studies and all listen to a 30 minute teaching about a boy named "Alonzo" (available on the HisFeet downloads site), and then we'll get back to work until the men get home this evening. And while we're at it, let's just eat together again tonight, why don't we, if it's okay with the guys and nothing else "higher" is going on? When the men get home from IBM and Billy Bob's Body Shop, etc. anything can happen. Maybe someone unexpectedly brought a coworker home from work that is experiencing a crushing divorce and it changes everything "planned" for the evening. No problem. Two older teenagers and an adult may take the young ones upstairs and occupy them in something HEALTHY with specific direction and instruction while the other adults sit and offer Christ to the coworker brought home and offer compassion and whatever practical help they can over dessert (spinkled with tears). Or, maybe one of the men comes home and his attitudes at work weren't exactly right -- maybe he has a difficult boss/employee relationship that he isn't handling very well (for now!) -- and the evening will be spent finding ways to encourage him practically in all that. Or maybe someone has been reading a book, is convicted about something, an except is read and the evening is spent STUFFING everyone with some spectacular teaching. Or maybe the children are taken over to a central location with other adults while 5-6 men head downtown to hand out blankets to people living on the street and sharing God's love. Or... It just may be spent in Chemistry lab that night with two of the men who are chemical engineers taking on 5-6 of the "high school" aged children (the men teach the children too, after work and on weekends), and the women finishing out that big pile of laundry TOGETHER they started earlier in the day...... and everyone goes to bed and calls it a day.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:28 pm:

I mean, it could be anything like what I wrote above on a DAILY basis. That kind of stuff happens every day, all the time, day in and day out. On weekends, there may be several men who happen to have "car issues" so maybe there will be a neighborhood "car repair party" or two or three have to do a little overtime so 1 or 2 guys take some letter-writing they need to do and head downtown with the ones who need to do the overtime for an hour or two on Saturday, put in the overtime, eat lunch together, share God's love with others sitting around them eating or singing quietly to Jesus before eating and then heading home to see what the evening brings. Maybe in the evening, half the church ends up down at Ben and Jerry's for some ice cream after a ball game that featured several of the teenaged boys, and we'll sit around and press into one another along with some New York Super Fudge Chunk something from a recent teaching, or T. Austin-Sparks, or Watchman Nee, or just why is it that Peyton Manning and the Colts can't seem to win a championship game (!!??!!) right in the ice cream parlor together... and everyone goes home and goes to bed after another full day in Jesus together. Like John said in John 21, I really could go on and on with different things like that that happened and the things we shared together "as we got up, sat down, and walked along the way together" in living rooms, meetings, ball games, ice cream parlors, pizza places, walks in the park, etc. where the potential for being REAL (as well as just being funny together) was ALWAYS there. How many things were said to me or others or everybody at once in situation after situation where we all let the sword cut both ways? Living that way on a daily basis changed my life forever and I grew more spiritually by living that way for 4 years than I did in 20 other years combined in a traditional "church" setting. Not only did I grow THERE, but the MOMENTUM and Life behind that way of living with the quality of those kinds of people has CATAPULTED me forward even now to a very high quality of daily life in my household and made our lives (as weak and frail as we still are!) quite attractive to neighbors, friends, coworkers and people in traditional church settings where we live now without having to say a WORD. "The LIFE became the LIGHT of men."

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:30 pm:

A HELICOPTER VIEW -- A CORPORATE VIEW We all came from all kinds of "religious" backgrounds. Former Catholics, Baptists, Presbys, Methodists, "charismatic" backrounds (Vineyard, etc.), Church of Christ, you name it. And corporately there is interaction all the time with those from all of those backgrounds because another thing we "discovered" that allowed the "spiritual dam" to break, so to speak, and allowed us to begin living as I described above on a daily basis together is that nothing should nor did really separate us from one another other than... Do we all want to love and obey Jesus with all our hearts? (That applies to exra-corporate contact as well. No "spiritual discrimination" is made with folks "outside" either in the city of Indy or in other places in the US and world.) Other than that one thing, there are no dividing lines between us or anyone else. Paul says to "build wisely," so it's not a "free for all" where everyone runs around and just relates to whomever they want. At work, you wouldn't run over to the accounting department, just pick anyone indiscriminately and say "Hey, let's go to lunch! After all, we all work for the same company!!" No, the "hand" is connected to the "arm" and relates to the "arm" principally. And the "foot" to the "shin" principally, with the head (Jesus, as we listen) directing the "hand" to scratch the "leg" on occasion. But we build wisely while relating on the basis of loving and obeying Jesus only. And all our former "distinctions" have been absorbed and elevated out of (like a child growing out of old clothes into new clothes) where we were, becoming more and more like Him, each individual, (being "transfigured" is the language Paul used) and more and more One together. As we obey, as we love, as we bear one another's burdens (and so "fulfill the law of Christ"), as we together look to and praise Him, we've become more like Him -- DAILY in any one of a ZILLION configurations every bit like my "daily snapshot" above.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:32 pm:

This quality of Life corporately has produced over 20+ years: - Men and women at all levels of spiritual maturity who know one another and Jesus intimately. Not just so-called "leaders". - Children and homes that are calm, peaceful, orderly and non-chaotic, with children at all ages -- teenagers included -- who are intelligent, kind, loving, and respectable to each other and adults and able to relate at high, intelligent levels readily to adults both in the church and outside the church (in the market place, with family blood relatives, on city sports teams, etc.) - Teenagers who "consider how to spur one another on to love and good deeds" with pictures, drawings, poems, songs, flowers, surprises, etc. directed to each other, little teenie children (yes they willingly and loving play with the small children too instead of just "flocking" into little teenage "cliques"), and to the adults close to them in their lives (since MANY adults are involved with their rearing). But yet these same teenagers would LOVE to absolutely "take you to town" in a hard game of basketball or lacrosse out in the yard! :-) Not wimps, but SOFT towards Jesus and others around them... - Children who are genuinely convinced that DESPITE how "nice" they are, they still need Jesus themselves or they are DOOMED. They know and understand that. The nice, calm, peaceful homes and their own "niceness" is Jesus' gift to them to help them get to that point of realization with very little "rubble" to clear. That is, by raising and training our children ourselves, we remove a lot of the road blocks to seeing Him that many of the adults have had to go through, and the maturation level and REALNESS of that transaction with Jesus when it comes, comes faster and is much more solid. (As I said, the quality of life was so high that having not lived in Indianapolis for 16 out of about 20 years this has been going on there, I myself, by the grace of God, have 3 teenagers and a 12 year old that act this way, and my household is calm, peaceful, ordered, full of joy and laughter, yet I have 3 sons that would love to "mix it up" in a nice friendly game of football or basketball... :-) We do have to stop sometimes and teach them that going over my back and taking my head off for a rebound is in fact a "foul"...! What I mean is, this isn't raising "wimps." And yet, they do understand and want to discover the answer to the only hope for their lives -- Jesus -- just as much as anything.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:34 pm:

More quality of Life, cont'd: - Men and women of wisdom, both leaders and those that aren't necessarily "leaders" who know how to deal with problems and resolve them to Jesus' satisfaction with very, very high degrees of patience, grace, knowledge, insight, love, compassion, and yet unwavering, steadfastness to the TRUTH as laid out in scripture. I already mentioned this in my first post about how I was dealt with. THAT went and has gone a LONG way in my recovery from deep sins that hurt my family and many around me earlier in my life and marriage. Not just WHAT was said, but HOW it was said went a super long way with me when I replayed those situations in my head. - Men and women whose lives truly aren't their own in ANY facet of life. Time, money, possesions -- large and small from baseball gloves to cars, boats, horses, tools, computers, and houses. Everything is willingly given to and for Jesus, case by case, while still maintaining their own bank accounts, savings accounts, mutual funds, cars, homes, bills (no one there has figured out either how to get rid of THOSE! except those burdens which are shared case by case! :-)), etc. Peter said, "Wasn't the money you had YOUR OWN???" to Annanias and Saphira. So not a "commune" by any stretch, but a "communion" (common union) for sure. The "linkage" to all those things together is in Life, not in actual shared property and "deeds." - People who KNOW ABOUT (because there is a daily level of close interaction) and secretly (as possible) take CARE of one another on a practical level with absolutely no desire for reward, repayment, acknowledgement, or entitlement. Happens all the time without any thought given to it, it's been happening for so long. In short, the environment is one of a giant, extended family, as Jesus said it would be and should be. There are multi-interwined relationships all over the place, with individuals and families completely free to explore and enjoy any number of options for enhancement of their walks with God or enjoyment of their time together in some form of teaching, instruction, companionship, wholesome entertainment or other enriching activity -- hiking, swimming (no mixed company, please! we like it that way and so does Jesus! :-)), trips to parks, golfing, basketball (some SERIOUS basketball, I might add, but that IS/WAS Indiana, right?! :-)), soccer, chess, four-square, skating, Pacer games, Colt games, movies (usually edited, I'm afraid -- "Hollywood" is spelled with two "L"s and not one!), the list goes on and on and on... And in eveyrthing we do, right in the middle of a Pacer game or in the middle of a corporate gathering, we "look" (with the eyes of our heart) to Jesus and to one another and simply ask the question "What next?" and then DO that thing, with a smile on our face, and a song (or a tear) in our hearts. We just try to be REAL always. What freedom that brings.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:36 pm:

PROBLEMS :-( AND JESUS' SOLUTIONS :-) Back to me and the others on the list as examples to illustrate what happens when, unfortunately, despite an absolutely TERRIFIC and LOVING (but very well lighted -- that's what Jesus' life automatically does, right according to John 1:4?? -- "the LIFE became the Light of men") enviroment. Sometimes things go bad. Some people fall into things they just don't want to give up, and serious issues have to be and are of course dealt with. Jesus commanded to "get the leaven OUT of the batch," did He not? Or that environment that everyone ELSE is enjoying and growing in goes "bye, bye" according to Jesus, right? Why should the fabulous enrichment of many, many, many others (hundreds of people) be jeopardized and destroyed -- the joyous homes, relationships, children, etc. -- because some people very sadly decide they want to live how they want to live ANYWAY? Sometimes, satan somehow sinks his fangs in and bad things DO and HAVE happened, as I've already indicated with myself and the real REASONS why people on the list (that I very sorrowfully feel was inappropriately shared here, regardless of what they did) where unfortunately asked to leave. Even in leaving, I won't re-detail it all here, but I'll touch on it briefly. - Almost everyone had their way out of Indianapolis PAID. Is that amazing or what? With some of the craziest sins you can imagine (adultery?!), people who didn't want to change were not only asked to leave (as 1 Corinthians 5 and other scriptures COMMAND), but were essentially and lovingly PAID to leave out of the pockets of those still there. Tell me THAT isn't amazing... - For those whose exit was painful enough that it "woke them up" (like the man in Corinth that Paul mentioned to "rush back to"), those people, including myself, have had a very easy time in re-establishing lost relationships in Indianapolis over the miles. All people wanted was for the obvious sin to be dropped as Jesus commanded. And forgiveness is NOT a problem. With no reference to it made again if the FRUIT of your repentance is clear (as John the Baptist, Jesus and Paul taught regarding "Godly sorrow" and seeing the FRUIT of repentance.) - Some who have made somewhat serious mistakes in their lives, but didn't leave (every situation is different, and that is actually another blessing I would represent as a positive "feature" there -- every situation is evaluated FRESH and on the basis of what is pertinent, best and highest to THIS and ONLY this situation) and later repented have lived their lives there COMPLETELY FREE of any reference EVER to past sins. I can think of 4-5 people living there now in that kind of situation, where they had problems, thankfully repented, and nary a MENTION is made of it ever again. These people can go on living for Jesus as if nothing happened so they don't have to look over their shoulders and "wonder." I am eye witness to this.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:37 pm:

SUMMARY Well folks, four years there, and there is NO possibility I can cover everything. I'd have to sit here and write for almost four years. So much nappened in real-time, it would take real-time to recap it all, and I don't have time to write it and you wouldn't have time to read it if I did that. I think the view I've presented here gives you an insiders view of the TYPE of people there (normal eveyrday people like you and me, all across America), the QUALITY of the people there, the LIFE of the people there, and even how PROBLEMS are handled. And because of that, I am where I am today: Recogniant of what has separated me in the past, and free to move on and live that same kind of life where I am now without ANY bitterness about the past. If YOU had (or have, hopefully!!) lived in love with people like that, and you had to leave it WOULD produce pain. There is no way around that. I already said, sin KILLS relationships. And there's nothing to "kill" if there's no relationship. Thankfully, relationship can be restored. Consequences can't be mitigated some times -- that's not for anyone to decide but God, right? (Reference Cain, Moses, Lot, Saul, David, Solomon, Paul, and many, many more). But by God's grace, relationship with Him and his people (everywhere!) can be INSTANTLY restored the very SECOND we lay down our sins and really repent. Amen? (That even includes some of the people here on FactNet... I've seen it before, many times!)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:43 pm:

I hope this answers some questions people have about "what happens" in Indianapolis. Some of you after reading this are likely to be "moved" to ask me further questions here on this board. If you'll permit me to kinda setup some "rules for engagement" on that possibility (since others here have taken the same liberty), I think that would be best for all of us. I'm NOT there any more and it's not fair to you, me or the people there for me to set myself up as some kind of "spokesman" for them. Some of this has already been mentioned, but I'll recap here: (1) Send a message to AllAtHisFeet [at] cs [dot] com. (2) Check out the FAQ Section of the web site there. There is a recording there called "Zeal For The Fathers House" that will provide you with SIX HOURS of questions and answers that will cover most of what you want to know, I would imagine. (3) If you STILL have questions that are related to ME and it still seems right to ask them here and I feel right about answering (ie. no ugly attitudes or arm-twisting please!), I'll be glad to answer what I can if you've really given THEM a chance to answer for what's there NOW. (That's only fair to you, me and them too.) I really don't intend to be here much since it's not the best place at ALL for sorting out truth, but I'll check back here and there just in case. And maybe a general note later about the proper REACTION to bitterness, pain, hurt and confusion (no matter where you are or why you have been "made" to feel that way), and then I'll leave this thread alone... Then again, Jen and others here are starting to graciously bow out, so with this picture painted for people who have had questions, maybe it's simply time for me and everyone else to follow her lead, packup and head off to something better as she very touchingly suggested... Bye for now! ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 2:59 pm:

PS. Let me address a writing convention I used in the previous several postings that could be mistaken as "arrogance" or something. When using the word "church", you may note that that word is often quoted. I think a simple explanation is in order: I think it's undeniable that there is A LOT out on the religious landscape today. Some people are in buildings on certain days of the week, some people are meeting in homes, some people -- where they are "at" right now is that they -- aren't "going" ANYWHERE, but still harbor deep love for God. Some people are in small groups and don't even consider THEMSELVES a "church" per se. That's how they would describe themselves (I know some of 'em myself). So, before my quoting of that word gets someone testy, let me just say that that word should really signify right now, people in "groups" or however they are configured at the moment, wanting somehow to know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and hence the "quoting" of the word "church." -co

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 10:49 pm:

UltimateTruthSeeker: Hey there... I appreciate much of your post and your willingness to do a 180 that carries some potential to provide you with some grief here maybe. That's courageous of you. But don't forget these people, hurt as they are by their own choices are still PEOPLE, just like you and me. Saying they are "just leaven" sounds a little demeaning to me, if that's okay for me to point out. The folks in Indiana still care about 'em and I do too from where I live (however I can), so... Your call to repentance is great and we should leave 'em with just that decision and nothing else. These folks have feelings too and have been through a LOT of hurt (even if brought on by themselves) so we definitely want to not "call names" even in the middle of maybe some rightly placed zeal. We used to sing a song -- sometimes together with these folks listed here -- that said, "And we'll guard each man's dignity and help crucify our pride." That's something we sang together as a pledge to one another and we still want to guard their dignity while being real about the other stuff. Based on the rest of your post, I'm sure you'll do that for them too. :-) G'Night, ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 3:36 am:

Hello Jen, Been gone for a bit. Most of your questions have to do with me, so I feel fine answering and they are obviously honest questions: If life there is so wonderful and trouble free, except for the problems with the leaven, why are you no longer there? If your sin problems are over and repented of, and the life there is so appealing to you, why didn't you go back? The really simple answer I kind of already implied in my "snapshot" of what life is like there. Under the PROBLEMS AND JESUS' SOLUTION section, I said something to the effect that sins can ALWAYS be repented of, but sometimes, the EFFECTS or CONSEQUENCES cannot be mitigated -- those are up to God, and I referenced a list of biblical characters who did things in their lives that "cost" them something kinda precious for that. Moses for example -- couldn't go into Canaan because he struck a rock when he was supposed to speak to it. Seems kinda "trivial." Wow. Talk about "legalistic" and "controling"!! If I "cheat" on my spouse for example, the door to repentance is always there to walk through, but there remains a distinct possibility that I may not be able to "get back into" the situation I was once in, even if I really, really wanted to. Why? The CONSEQUENCES of sin, even though through repentance I may be free from the future penalty. Another very related reason is God "chooses the times and places where men live" (Acts 17), and I'm "not in charge" of my life any more. God is. No one there is "keeping" me from going back. I live in a "free country" where I can move to any ol' city I feel like, and I *can* move back anywhere if I want. But when I asked *God* for leading on where I needed to be with my life SINCE then, that hasn't been in the picture as yet. And I'm not "free" to decide anything about my life any more if I've truly put Jesus in charge. It's a simple freeing way to live BTW.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 3:40 am:

You don't seem happy in the church you are in now. It's a sincere question. You said, "Here where I live in a typical "church" setting to contrast a little bit, I can't even get people to move a few pieces of heavy furniture for 15 minutes, immediately after a "Bible" study, but hey... You guys go ahead and keep defending the "norm" out there.... :-( )" Again, truly there is no sarcasm in me as I write this. I just can't understand why you stay in a church you don't believe is doing things right, when the alternative in Indy seems so much better to you. Well, kinda in line with the last answer I provided, in addition to not being free to decide where I live, I'm not, as His child, put here on planet Earth to "be happy" either (though unfortnuately a large segment of what most consider "Christendom" preaches that). I *am* happy "under his yoke" which is EASY to bear, but there IS still a yoke. He's called us to SERVE the people we're around. Doesn't mean that we can't rightly identify when things are operating "lower" than what His Heart is. It's "okay" to be disappointed for instance when your child makes a poor choice or when your child decides time and time again to live for self in such a way that destroys his/her life and negatively impacts everyone elses life around them. I'm not happy with some of the choices others make when they choose to live for themselves and that is EVIDENT. I'm not happy when *I* make choices to live for myself and that is EVIDENT (either to me or at least to the people around me, if they care enough to even notice, which was kind of my point in mentioning that). So it's not about ME, if that makes sense. It's not that I'm "not happy" with where "I am" -- Life's a lot bigger than that!! We should ALWAYS care about the standard of the Life of Jesus being "dropped" to the floor (as if it didn't matter at all and Jesus spilled blood for NOTHING), while still caring intimately for the people around us. In fact, Love and Truth are INTIMATELY tied together. When you are "disappointed" in a child's "bad choice" what is the prime motivator (or should be) for that bad choice? Your love for the child because the TRUTH is, selfish behavior is going to kill him. It's not because you are "judging" the child or being "legalistic" but because some reasonable and Truth-based standard wasn't met by them and that's going to ill-effect him and you ultimately don't want that out of love.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 3:55 am:

Why is no one ever alone? (Multiple situations provided as examples) You asked about a lot of normal situations, and those are certainly... normal situations when NORMALIZED by a standard of how Jesus, the early disciples, and the apostles and prophets FUNCTIONED. That is, for a new creation, I think it's indisputable to say that "ALL things have become NEW" (or should) and therefore what a believer calls "normal" shouldn't maybe look too much like what a non-believer calls normal regarding ANYTHING. (Paul said "ALL".) Maybe the best way to answer your question is to say that almost all of those examples you provided DO happen there, with the following in consideration and as questions to ponder: (1) When you or I sin, esp. those sins which seem to grieve God MOST, whose company are you normally in? In what company are most sins carried out? Under what cloaks were and are some of the most heinious crimes against individuals committed both past, present, and (unfortunately) future? I tihnk the answer to that is apparent. We are usually alone or as alone or in the dark or as "secretive" as we can possibly get. In fact, the more ATROCIOUS and HEINIOUS the crime or sin, generally, the MORE ALONE or secret one is or has to be in order to complete it generally. The real question SHOULD NOT BE, "Why are people there never alone?" but RATHER -- WHY AREN'T MORE PEOPLE SCARED TO BE ALONE???!!!!!! Have we not seen inside our hearts properly as God has made so clear THROUGHOUT the Bible? "The heart is deceitful above ALL THINGS -- who can KNOW IT???" (Jeremiah) Watch the evening news and if that doesn't absolutely prove that NONE of us really need to be alone for large segments of time (and if that doesn't absolutely SHAKE one about oneself), I don't know what does. All those gut-wrenching, family-destroying sins I discussed in an earlier post (eg. some have no more "family" to have a "family evening" with that you understandably expressed as valuable!!!!) were all done alone or in secret. They (we) certainly didn't invite people over before we did them. All mine were done in secret and alone...?! And so did the others. Are you and *I* any different, better or stronger than they are/were that we might avoid the same pitfalls? Do we even WANT to? Or do we "value" our "time alone" so much as to RISK what they risked, some loosing their families to sin? None of this to say being alone is "wrong" per se. But can we not at least in examining the EVIDENCE of these situations listed and the world around us say that it carries at least some danger (to really put it quite mildly)???

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 4:05 am:

(points from last question continued)... (2) Note what happened IMMEDIATELY after the first "babies" were born into the Kingdom in Acts 2. What was their IMMEDIATE, new inborn RESPONSE to the message they heard? (In what "sermon" did Peter or any of the other apostles "command" the saints to be "together daily in public and from house to house, [devoting] themselves to the apostles teaching, to the fellowship, the breaking of bread, and to prayer"??? Wow... No one "commanded" them to do that, that RESPONSE *came* from "somewhere else"... 60 years later, that WAS COMMANDED by the Hebrews writer in Heb. 3 and in Heb. 10, the urge was to not forsake the gathering of the saints. I can't get "into" all the ins and outs of how Heb. 10 is used today -- view it how you like, but one has to ask the question what WAS their "manner of gathering" or "being together" THEN?? That's the only way they could have "forsaken" whatever the Hebrews writer was talking about was whatever that "manner of gathering" was THEN. NOT what it "is now" today in 20th century America...) (3) Look at HOW the apostles and disciples FUNCTIONED? 60 years of recorded church history in the NT and MOST of what you read is about being together. FUNCTIONING *together*. Not that no one was ever alone or can't be, but ironically the Holy Spirit recorded very few situations where someone was actually alone and certainly NONE that looked like what your normal, average, unregenerate 20th century America "expects" that to look like. What I'm asking is, when does anyone have any time on their own to get before God quietly in their "closet"? Are members ever encouraged to do so? I mean weren't there a great many times that Jesus Himself was alone to pray, to grieve, to commune alone with His Father? Heavily encouraged and practiced. Jesus did it often as you pointed out. Since the "corporate" and "daily life" of the church there seemed to be under fire, that was my focus in my "Indy snapshot." But time alone with God is heavily encouraged not to mention (no matter what "someone else is doing somewhere") simply right based on Jesus' example. It's interesting to point out (not that you were doing this since your questions were sincere and the scriptures you used were clear -- I point it out in general) that we're more than willing to use the Life and Example of Jesus when it's not too risky or "controversial." But when it's controversial (or more usually when it COSTS), then we tend to cry "foul!" and "legalism!" and "controlling!" :-( We, as Christians are NOT consistent!! It might make an interesting study to see just when Jesus, the early disciples and any apostle or man of God in the NT was "alone" and what they were doing when they were alone.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 4:09 am:

Do you think that maybe all the constant togetherness of everyone would substantiate the claim of some who have said that the leaders must know everything about everyone? You know Jen, I think it's clear from this board that people are going to believe what they WANT to believe essentially no matter WHAT is offered. In fact (people here like "facts", so here's one for us all to chew on), most people are AFRAID of (and PERSECUTE) what they don't know or don't understand. History is RIFE with example after example of this -- "The world is round!" -- "Is NOT!!! Take it back, or we'll BURN you for saying that!!!" I mean, just how many times is history going to repeat itself here before Jesus comes back??? It's very, very, very difficult to help people who are afraid (or have hidden agendas as with the "world is round" example). I can't say much more about that, though I will make another (farewell?) post providing some scriptures and an ANSWER to this question of "what the Indiana Cult Specialist Organization thinks" (or whatever it's called) in line with all this. In the end, Paul said that the REAL DEAL was going to "carry the aroma of Life or the stench of death." Cult_Fighter already told everyone what it smells like to HIM. It smells like PUKE DEATH to him. Fine. That doesn't mean it's not the real deal and I guarantee you the real deal anywhere ELSE (and I have no doubt that God is working in a real way in gazillions of places on this planet) will smell JUST as BAD to HIM... "An onion by any other name would smell just as..." Stop listening to what other people tell you it all "smells like" and stoop down to smell the flower yourself. God has made it absolutely clear that two people can smell two entirely different "aromas" from the SAME FLOWER. If what ANY of us is currently functioning in DOESN'T strike people as EITHER the "aroma of Life or the stench of death" (not some "take it or leave it, 'oh, that was nice'" kinda reaction) then maybe, just maybe.... Hmmmmm. Take care, ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, June 13, 2006 - 5:00 am:

Well folks, the time has come for me to make this place a scarce or never-to-be-visited again niche on the WWW. The folks who have their minds made up for whatever reasons have their little area for bashing of another group now, so... it's all theirs. But before I go, I wanted to point out one more thing, based on something Cult_Fighter wrote a while back: Here's another "real thing" -- one of those stubborn facts: Indiana Families Against Cults (IFAC), the state's #1 Christian anti-cult group, classifies Mike Peters & his group as a CULT. Real thing! Can't dispute it. But your opportunity is to NAME some Indianapolis pastors or churches who would refute IFAC's claim. Until you do, IFAC is the authority!! (emphasis mine) Okay, here's some FACTS: FACT: Archeological evidence as well as scripture indicates that the real, true-blue, early Christians in the 1st century were definitely viewed and referred to as a cult or "sect" in their day by the so-called secular "authorities" of that day. That doesn't mean that they were of course and in fact, most man-made secular authorities have not only missed anything real God has done throughout history, they've very often miscategorized it to such an extent that that "thing" of God was hounded, hunted down and destroyed by them (or so they thought), including Jesus of Nazereth Himself as were nearly all the apostle and prophets. Now THAT'S an indisputable, historical FACT. FACT: Jesus himself said that if people wouldn't believe the words He said (which in fact, again, the authorities of HIS day "twisted" and "turned" and "spun" out of hidden agendas and fears, turning an ENTIRE CITY against Him MERELY DAYS after He entered it as a "hero"), not even someone raised from the dead would change the minds of people like that. Check out: Acts 5:17, 7:9, 13:45, 17:5; Matt 27:18; Mark 15:10 and many others. These are the reasons WHY Jesus was killed as well as many others that followed Him and came after Him (as well as before him as Jesus said) all through the centuries. Jesus said that many will kill thinking that they are actually serving God, but will in fact (His implication) be working against God himself. Remember Paul, as I discussed with Jen, said that ONE FLOWER can, will and SHOULD produce two different aromas. And what better way to leave FactNyet than to leave y'all to it with just them FACTS... If by some weird chance, some honest soul wants to ask me a question, I can be reached at: WirklichMir144@yahoo.com (1) I'm not likely to check that address but once a month if that, so don't think I'm ignoring you if you have a true, blue honest question. (2) I'm not going to answer questions about "Indy." Write them. Ask them. I'm NOT a "spokesman" for them. (Nor am I now nor was I ever a "leader" as someone here asserted. FAR from it. I'm very impoverished still in my knowledge of Him and happy to simply bow out in most if not all situations, including this one.) (3) I'm not going to "get into it" with anyone at that email address. If you want to argue, come back here. That's what this board is all about. Paul said to Timothy that a "man of God MUST NOT ARGUE." Nor waste time. I have plenty where I am to do. Lives at stake, etc. So I don't have time for it, folks. No offense. You don't "like" Indy? Fine. Don't go there. You all are free to choose, as Jesus has said to us all. Choose to believe whatever you want. So long! ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 12:10 am:

It's absolutely mind-boggling to me that someone posting here, completely anonymous themselves, would AGAIN insinuate the folks in Indy are ANONYMOUS and mysterious and say in such a way as to paint them as "dark", "not in the light" and purposefully "ellusive." The only posssible way someone POSTING ANONYMOUSLY could say this with a straight face is if there was some hidden agenda on the part of the person saying it or is just absolutely blind to the irony of saying such a thing COMPLETELY ANONYMOUSLY themselves. NO ONE HERE HAS ANY IDEA WHO ***YOU*** ARE, AGING_MOM (though I am convinced you are "sincere")!!! NOR ANY OTHER OF THE ACCUSERS HERE!!! Isn't THAT incredibly ironic and stupifying when you bring up the "anonymous" accusation again and again and again??? If you want to be left anonymous, that's entirely YOUR business, but the FACT remains, other than Jen and Dennis, no one posting here who has leveled accusations against this church has as yet revealed who they are as Raymond (noachmattathius) has pointed out (and I'm grateful to see as well as few other things he's been bold enough to write). In constrast to the cloaks of darkness HERE, the church in Indy has a: (1) Public web site with literally dozens and dozens of teachings both written and in MP3 format. (You can hear their VOICES.) (2) A ***6 hour*** VIDEO tape of answers and questions in their FAQ section about nearly every topic anyone would be interested in with Mike's face and one other person ON THE TAPE. (BTW, those questions they are answering came in from leaders and churches all over the US and the world -- I wonder how THEY were able to contact this "super secretive" and so-called "anonymous" group and get them to take the time to sit down and answer ***6 hours*** of questions??? Doesn't sound like HIDING to me??? But only for those that have some serious misconceptions or hidden agenda to PAINT them that way...) (3) An internet email address. (4) A US Postal mailing address. (5) Pictures of themselves on the web site.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 12:13 am:

That's pretty far from "anonymous" and "ellusive"... There is literally 100x more information on that web site about them then I or anyone else knows COLLECTIVELY about the posters here including the VERY, VERY few who have identified themselves over and above these ANONYMOUS PSUEDONYMS everyone uses. And there is no less information on that web site about them then you would find at any other church site from any other place on the web. In my opinion, there is quite a bit more than most. There is NO MYSTERY as to what they believe, who they are, what they are about, and how to get a hold of them. There is GREAT mystery here about many of the "talking heads" and in fact some have even indicated they felt intrepedtation at being revealed. And with GOOD REASON, as we have already gone over. Raymond (noachmattathius): No one here is going to reveal who they are. I'm grateful for some of the "one-way rule making" you've been able to point out. The most prevelant nay-sayers and so called "experts" are the ones trying to bully people into seeing this church their way and playing by their rules. The answers they are demanding again is their "right," but no one here has the right to see it the other way around. "Stop changing the subject and just answer our questions..." they say. "We played a durge for you, and you wouldn't dance..." As you can see, it's very, very difficult to "answer" the questions of those of Ciaphas spirit who have a hidden agenda and already feel they know the answers as was the case with Jesus' accusers and many other martyrs of the Faith. That's why Jesus, the prophets of old, the apostles, and many of the martyrs "stood silent" before their accusers. Because nothing they said would make any difference anyway. Their accusers were already drunk on themselves, worked into a wild frenzy (even though some secretly knew the truth but didn't care -- they had "another" agenda), and were going to do or believe what they wanted to anyway as is evident here on FactNyet.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 12:16 am:

There are hundreds of silent readers of this thread who have seen the "spirit" of the people villifying the church there and how gracious they have tried to treat others here, including those that the church knows way more about then people here are EVER going to offer about themselves. But the integrity of men (no matter what they have done) has been guarded there for years and that was a choice made a long time ago without any thought that there would be such a high price to pay for it as has been made here with their lives slandered innocently. And so Sigh isn't standing alone here (and I live about 1000 miles away from Indy), as one who has lived there and have been willing to talk about my life and own up to why I am not there any more (instead of someone taking ANONYMOUS POT SHOTS because I either haven't gotten over the bitterness or sin yet), there have been MANY, MANY out and out false accusations about Mike, his family, how they live, what they do, others there, etc. People here accusing either don't know, or speak from a posture of bitterness, pride, arrogance, and/or unrepentance. To try and "correct" all those things would be pointless in this forum as I've already pointed out. And GottaPost... No one in Indy wants to get involved in this cess-pool very likely and you probably even know that. You know people there don't waste their time on this kind of garbage (eg. constant bickering, arguments, "prove this, prove that!!!", 20 questions, false accusations by people with their minds made up, etc. -- the Bible calls that stuff garbage, a waste of time, and therefore sin when it comes down to it.) Why you want to continue to paint them as "restricted" seems tied to some evil agenda you have which in my thinking is very related to unfulfilled sentiments of ambition you've already shared like "He had the goods on me, why can't I have the goods on him?" and "I wanted to be a leader there." And your posts on how Mike chooses to travel also strikes me as nothing but an evil intended to paint him in a negative and "unusual" light when I know tens of DOZENS of other "church groups" and leaders in every denomination -- some rather large like Dobson, Graham, etc. -- that travel without their wives ALL THE TIME all over the world and with other sisters from their groups as well as men (as Mike does)... So what's your point other than you are still embittered in some way??? And one more thing, GottaPost... That sick, sick feeling we get deep inside every time we read your posts (if I can speak for Sigh just once) is the only "call from headquarters" we've received. And it is enough. ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:18 pm:

noachmattathius: The hearts and minds of everyone on this board aren't going to be changed. Their minds are already made up so they can't "see" or "hear" what you and others are saying. They can't "see" or "understand" the incredible contradictions, accusations, misrepresentations (not only of "Indy" but how they "handle" scripture as well), and convenient use of one-way, self-serving, contradicting logic they continually employ in their favor whenever something or someone pops up that goes against what they "see" so "clearly." Their bitterness and arrogant pride has been raging for years by their own admission and the internet and this board have finally given them avenue to "vent" and try and draw off disciples (a disciple is a "follower") as you so accurately pointed out. It's up to you, but I'd just leave 'em to run this thread and their little ol' "help" blogs or whatever. This is their little "bandwagon" now and there is no way you are going to help them "see" anything other than what they already believe. I'm sure Korah felt he was absolutely right right up until the moment the ground opened up beneath the feet of him, his family, and all those in league with him. As soon as something posted is about Denny or any of the others here in league with him, that person is pounced upon, asked how they can be "God" and "judge motives" (when the motives of others they oppose here are REGULARLY questioned on a near daily basis, unsolicited), called "fillabusters" (when the "word weight" on this board and fillabustering from them FAR outweighs what anyone else has posted here), and they even have the audacity to ask you to retract your "accusations" when that's at the very heart of their spirit here is spewing accusations not only here, but setting up other boards on the internet to facilitate this sort of thing. That's just really amazing for Jen to ask you to "retract your accusation" but it's very indicative of how everyone is bullied into playing here. And as for why you would DEFEND people you've never met (which I can't say you haven't -- but they presuppose that), Jen herself has never met anyone there, so that's really ironic (again) coming from her (but again the only way she and others here can "see" it -- they don't see the incredible irony in much of what they post.) You could ask her in turn Why she continues to ATTACK people she doesn't even know or hasn't met (to apply the same "logic" she is using on you in HER direction [again]), but that wouldn't go over too well. She would "help you see" that that is not the case, that they are a "help" to others. And Dennis was "only there 5 weeks." Remember, he stated flatly that that wasn't enough time for them to get to know him, but it's made him a practical world authority on them. (Does anyone ELSE in the world have a board set up on "Indy"? No, just some guy that was there 5 weeks and didn't like something that happened to him. It's not a coincidence by the way that he names his blog "NoahLot" in spite of how he's deceived himself and others as to how he "innocently" came up with THAT name. I'm sure the steps he described are accurate, but it supernaturally fits. It certainly is very descriptive of how he carried himself when I knew him.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:21 pm:

You've made some very valid points in recent posts, but guess what? As I posted a long time ago, it's not going to do any good because these guys completely have their minds made up and any and everything you or anyone else says in "defense" of "Indy" is going to be twisted, attacked, and played upon by their own rules of engagement, etc. All the "scriptures" and complete mishandling of the Word of Truth (2Tim 2:15) is a smoke-screen (though I think they think themselves sincere), as you seem to already realize. When it comes down to it, the bulk of this thread (the handful of original posters don't even post here any more -- they've moved on with their lives!) can be summed up by one guy and his wife that has pathetically centered his ENTIRE LIFE around a resturant conversation that happened over 12 years ago that his pride has never allowed him to get over and a few disciples he's been able to recruit here. I'm mean that's really what this comes down to. And if he wants to throw his entire life away over one conversation where he couldn't have his way with people who were cautious enough to say "Whoa, slow down!" over some very serious sin at the time, then that's entirely his business. It's tremendously sad to see, but that's still his business. There's not one honest, God-loving person I've ever run into that has had a problem with the people under consideration here, but instead in every case I know about sin or later pride, arrogance, bitterness and anger has fanned a firestorm of resentment, accusation, and name-calling. People here don't consider SIN very seriously, that's for sure with sarcastic comments like "Oh SHUDDER... LEAVEN!!!" so how can they be trusted to represent God's view??? But Jesus said it would be that way, so none of what I'm saying should be or is a big surprise. "These people slander what they do not understand" and "follow THE WAY of Korah." Everyone that has tried to work with them has done so with soft spirit, rejoicing in their relating that repentance has been made. No name calling, no accusations (just FACTS based on real life experience with them involving MANY WITNESSES regarding specific sins, pride and arrogance), and even having pieces of this thread deleted (that were not even posted by folks in question here but some guy who arrogantly posted the newspaper article trying to "help out" and "be an expert") for THEIR sakes, while in the meantime these guys post accusation after accusation and misfact after misfact. So... You be the judge of the "spirit" here. I think it's very clear. Jesus, Paul, the early apostles and early Christians NEVER reacted that way.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 9:26 pm:

And as for "others" (outside of those apparently in league here) that do know Indy from experience, they haven't shown up here, and I think with good reason as I already pointed out in my first posting here. If they ARE dialoging with Dennis and Jen (which I have no reason to believe some are not), then they are doing it IN THE DARK and with people who obviously already have major issues with "Indy." So how is THAT supposed to "sort out" anything? Everyone "collaborating" has only proven that they all feel the same way -- they are hurt (a by product of sin), angry, and bitter and are corresponding with those that feel the same way. What potential for healing is there in that much less seeing the Truth? None. (What would our court systems be like if they were run this way -- putting together juries of people with major bones to pick with the accused, whether guilty or innocent? And how many that were guilty of something would die like a dog hung by a lynch mob -- sound familiar? -- if tried by people as angry, bitter and many year obsessed as folks here seem to be?? Can you imagine how many innocent people would die if things were run that way here in America? Can you imagine how many innocent people could die and will die from threads like this and others

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on not-so-FactNyet under the same premise since it degenerates into that sort of "justice" as we can see here and in thousands of other threads on this site???) And people "corresponding" privately with Dennis and Jen are just building a fire under someone that turned around 12 years later, not yet "finished" with a conversation in a resturant that didn't go the way he thought it would. It's mind boggling. The entire thing is really. I wonder how Jen could write her last paragraph with a straight face, I really do. It would be utterly laughable if the circumstances at stake here weren't so serious. It's a prime example of how they apply their so-called logic on others, but not on themselves. The examples here and their misuse of scripture are very numerous, but it's fruitless to point out; they sincerely can't see it. As Jesus, Isaiah, Paul, Jude and others prophesied would be the case with some. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:04 am:

And by the way, maybe someone can explain to me why "sigh" and "onetimeposter" are both Dan? And why "sigh" referred to Dan like he was someone else? Well Jen, the reason is is because they are two different people, but somehow you don't see it that way (by some "electronic evidence" no doubt that you think you have). And that right there as well as many other pre-supposed things posted in this thread make me and others feel like we can't possibly have "a biblical discussion" here, so you are left to suppose whatever you want either "biblical" or whatever else. The only thing I and others are "dodging" is the arguments that will invaribly ensue, which God commands a man of God not to engage in. Jesus was completely silent before His shearers for MANY reasons, even after much GOADING (eg. "Come on! Answer us! Don't you realize we hold the power of death over you!") and gave many "evasive" answers to his accusers ("the only 'answer' I will give you is the 'sign of Jonah'", "then neither will I answer you", to name but a couple) because He knew in advance what the outcome was going to be. Call that "judging your motives" if you want. Jesus and Paul said that kind of discernment is walking by the Spirit. And really, to avoid falling into the same traps I've already pointed out here (I have considered perhaps that I've already done that by posting at all today), I need to take an even longer sabbatical from here than I have up until now. Take care... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 1:41 am:

PS. The BIGGEST reason no one will answer your questions is because it's pointless to dialogue with people who don't hold the same very clear views Jesus and Paul and the early apostles held on sin and leaven for starters (1Corinthians 5, Romans 6-8 -- says the sin I do I at least HATE [no sarcasm or glossy over there], Hebrews 1, Hebrews 3, Matthew 6-8, Matthew 18, and MANY other places). If you don't agree with these ELEMENTARY teachings, then further dialogue about "other things" is pointless not to mention wrong (2John, Jude). Sarcasm and other "gloss it over" attitudes have been posted here on those two issues countless times. You all feel you are already "free" so enjoy your "freedom." It's not the freedom the Bible speaks of, but it's what you want, so... Have at it. You can also be "free" of any entanglements from those who take Jesus and the apostles at His word as well as a result. Later... -ChrisO (Message edited by wirklichmir on July 14, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 3:03 pm:

GottaPost blurts: Maybe someone will ask Dan if he ever confronted Mike on the copyright issues. I doubt Dan has confronted Mike because there is nothing in this area to confront about. At this point, unless someone has other information on true copyright laws (i.e. post a link to a legislative document that proves otherwise), copyrighting is very strictly observed in Indianapolis while I was there and from what I can tell from where I sit now. There is not one single altered video we own that we did not go out and buy the original for to cover the copyright. Then and now. And others there have done the same while we were there (and I see no reason why they would have discontinued the practice. Mike in this thread puts forth that they still do.) (BTW, the originals to various edited movies I have are still in my home sitting unopened. It's my right as a citizen to decide what I'm going to watch of a movie and what I'm going to cut out just as it is from a book, magazine or anything else. Any other "view" is totalitarian and communistic, just as our government is starting to get with the so-called exercise of "rights" [their twisted and hell-influenced view of "rights" of the filth publishers and not the viewers] with CleanFlicks and others who offer these outstanding services.) Again, as was already posted, and this is the stance: The “home videos” at http://www.AllAtHisFeet.com/medley are totally acceptable and legal based on a 1994 Supreme Court ruling regarding the definitions of the “fair use provisions” in section 107 of the Copyright Act. Look it up. If anyone finds out anything differently, the folks in Indy have asked that you let them know (instead of posting groundless insinuations here.) Certainly, the 20 or so similar videos posted all over the christian “web” thought it was legal also. So again, if someone knows of some more recent Supreme Court action that would negate the 1994 precedent, why not let them know? I know for a fact there exists a strong and serious desire there to comply (which I and my family still observe where I live). No one there goes so far as to even duplicate an edited video of any movie without buying the appropriate number of copies from Walmart and throwing them away. (I keep mine to prove I have observed copyright if civil authorities decide to become involved.) Again, post the legislative link that shows otherwise. Otherwise, this is getting beyond just mere "speculation" (as is so incredibly rampant here), but getting well into judging when there are sins here that have been brought out that have been unaccounted for or owned up to properly, but simply paved over so people here can have their day in the sun and keep the shooting gallery open. Jesus said "Get the log out of your own eye FIRST, then you will be able to SEE CLEARLY how to remove the log from your brother's eye." And maybe, just maybe the distinct LACK of that is exactly why "views" of "how", "who", "where", "what" and (most importantly) "WHY" in Indy are so skewed (or entirely baseless) because no one here is practicing that. The other (scary) side of that is that Jesus said if you DON'T do that, not only will you not be able to SEE CLEARLY, but you TOO will be judged. Not a good place to be.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 3:08 pm:

The rest of your posts (related to that last paragraph), GottaPost, on Mike and his relationships is simply disgusting. How you "paint it." You assume a lot not only of his relationships but also of trip details, motives, etc. I lived 5 houses down from Mike when I was there and I didn't know half the detail you claim to know because it was none of my business as were the details of "who" and "how" and "where" for the dozens and dozens of other trips other people there take, not just Mike. So much for "watchdoging". Of the many, many trips to other states my family took to other places (to visit physical family members, friends, other churches in Ohio, Florida, Texas, Illinois, Pennsylvania, California, etc.), if Mike knew any details of 2 of them, I would be very, very surprised. Back to M/F relationships: No one here knows that you couldn't even detect what was and was not a proper man-woman relationship with someone in your own household -- a situation that turned VERY dangerous while under your watch as head of your household. So stop "supposing" what "should" and "should not" be happening with Mike and others in situations until YOU can see straight to protect properly the people under your own direct watch. And you know as well as I do between you and me that for me to even bring this up brings WAY, WAY, WAAAAY more shame on me that it does you. But I mention it to try and WAKE YOU UP to see that you can't POSSIBLY see other situations correctly when ones under your watch have come so dangerously close to undescribable calamity. I stress once again, that's way more my fault than yours, but perhaps it will dissuade you from the speculation that was killing you while you DID live in Indy as well as how it's killing you now. Much less the ugly, insinuating light in which you present the "facts" here regarding Mike. You can hide your IP address and geographic "history," but you can't hide your "spiritual fingerprint." :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 3:12 pm:

As for the rest of everyone else reading, it wouldn't take much digging even here on the internet to find that people here in this thread aren't the only ones to have "run ins" and "disagreements" with the Elslager's. Someone in another forum has already formed the opinion that nothing they say is going to matter -- Dennis and Jen will ALWAYS be right no matter WHAT is said. That's what someone else said on a totally different topic in a totally different thread. They too also mentioned what a waste of time it was dealing with them, deleted their post, and backed out entirely also stating that under conscience, a man of God can't be caught ARGUING FACTS with these guys. Because they will NEVER SEE IT. Now that's just flat out pride and arrogance folks no matter how much they deny it. Dennis takes a bunch of people in another blog area (somewhere else on the internet) to task because he doesn't like things that THEY say -- and those people were even somewhat "agreeing" with Dennis -- and he rips THEM to shreds too. With sarcasm and language that are very unbefitting someone that calls himself a "believer." The pattern I think is clear: If ANYONE -- at a restuarant, in an email, on a blog, in a news group, in person (privately) disagrees with Dennis or Jen, they have a volcanic eruption on their hands. (Galatians 6 talks about "volcanic," light-deflecting reactions and where they come from.) They are simply not open to any other "view" or any other "truth" (even if it's THE Truth) than the way they see it. Can anyone see how this would make for a rather unfriendly and still unresolved lunch time conversation one time in Indianapolis 12 years ago? That's the basis for this thread essentially and yet the real thread -- the thread of their lives (the "outcome of their way of life", their "fruit" as Jesus said) -- from what I can tell 800 miles away from where they live now shows that this is consistent with them. Disagree with them, and be prepared for attack, slander, feigned sincerity, real and feigned confusion, chaos, arguments, and a whole bunch of other things. Now normally, I wouldn't say stuff like this. I believe people's integrity needs to be guarded and their sins covered to the extent possible. And in the past it HAS been guarded -- for 12 years. (And Dan even humbly taking down what he posted here AGAIN.) But these guys are the ones that have brought their own lives out into the public arena (not just here, but in other places including their own blogs), not me, claiming "let's uncover the darkness!" so... Let's uncover it. The evidence, both personally, and what you can find on the internet in SEVERAL places now, even Dennis' own board with the sarcasm and put-down language he uses (as I said, it doesn't matter WHAT someone has done -- "if someone hits you on the right cheek TURN TO THEM THE LEFT CHEEK ALSO"), demonstrates that they are very difficult people to get along with and can ONLY "see" things their own way. And if you DON'T see it their way, you are "evil", a "cult" or any other thing they can come up with to "discredit" you and prove you are "wrong" and they are "right." Paul says to "mark people out" who are like this. "NoahLot" indeed... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 9:22 pm:

You know GottaPost, no one here -- not you, not the Elslager's, not CultFighter nor anyone else here -- represents any real, true authority neither civil nor spiritual. These are just your opinions regarding copyrighting as well as most everything else posted in this forum. So the burden of "proof" falls on you. Until that time, these are just ACCUSATIONS as any real authority would view them if you brought it to their attention. They would want PROOF -- not your opinion however strongly you feel about it. So post the legislative link that provides the language that PROVES your copyright accusation or just be quiet about it. No other church in America would put up with a bunch of bona fide "spiritual" accusation makers whose life fruit verifiably STINKS coming in and "demanding answers" to all their questions. Go somewhere else and do this and see what happens. You represent no real authority. And if everyone here after reading both Sigh and OneTimePoster's comments really thinks that they are the same person simply because they "registered" with the same name (the electronic "proof" I mentioned), then you deserve to be left thinking that. You would be absolutely EMBARRASSED if this could be pulled into a court room and evidence presented as with a lot of other stuff here. Absolutely embarrassed. (*) You speak of "discernment" here but no one here seems to have much. It's clear just from their language that their "spiritual fingerprints" differ quite a lot though both have a similar aroma. I've not seen the person who is Sigh in a long, long time, but it's very easy from literally 1000 miles away to pick out who she is just by her writing even though she never signed her real name (but did use her first initial "C" and that matches who I know it is.) The burden of proof for these accusations then is on you, not anyone else. Stop all your cotton-picking, ridiculous table-turning and "authoritative" posturing. No one here owes you (plural) an explanation for anything. -ChrisO * - I use the courtroom as a place of example where even pagans at least go through a PROCESS (where the burden of real proof, and not opinionated, accusation, falls upon the accusers) that eliminates accusation and instead generally comes to the truth about situations like this. I didn't mention it because I'm thinking about using the courts. But I thought I better put this disclaimer here before THAT comment is turned inside out as well.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:05 pm:

OK Jen, I "C" your point. I did mis-read that. But the reason I did is because Sigh sounds very, very much like a person whose name begins with the same letter, so it's a co-incidence that Sigh quoted someone with a name that also begins with the same letter as her own. So the point still stands. I'm 99% sure of who Sigh is based on her aroma and how she speaks and even if I am wrong about the exact person, the point still stands that there's no way someone could really read OneTimePoster and Sigh and believe they were the same person. (1) They sound no where near the same, and (2) because I do know Dan, and he would never do something like that, so I can be 100% sure it's NOT "Dan" in both cases. See, this is exactly a "case in point" for all the accusations here. You think you "see" sometihng -- some "evidence" for something -- and you jump all over it and assume and accuse. This has gone on for many, many more things than who Sigh and OneTimePoster are. So they signed up with the same name... BIG DEAL. It means nothing. They are in fact two different people. And again, based on the sins of the people I have already talked about while they were in Indy, those sins were serious enough to keep them from "seeing" what was going on under their noses properly. You want to have a "biblical discussion" about this???? The BIBLE makes it CLEAR, CLEAR, CLEAR that SIN DECEIVES. PERIOD. if you are IN SIN and you think you see something, God says "probably not" at least not CLEAR ENOUGH to ***DO*** something EFFECTIVE about it based on the scripture I already quoted on "getting the LOG out." Now if you don't think adultery, jealousy, GOSSIP (listed in the same breathe as MURDER in the scriptures -- why? because GOSSIP and SLANDER like what are on this board DOES ***MURDER*** people), flirting with married women, and all the other JUNK SIN that I listed in my first post pertaining directly to people posting here AREN'T HIGHLY POTENT things that would SERIOUSLY, SERIOUSLY skew someone's spiritual vision, then you are reading from a different Bible than I am. I would have to quote half of the NT here to back this up. And I've gone on to mention -- while preserving the DETAILS (and therefore those individual's integrity) -- of other dangerous, sinful things people who continue to post on this board have done. Such as leaving a female member of their own household unduly exposed to another male while forming "opinions" of Mike's very PUBLIC relationships in the M/F realm. They can't even see it "straight enought" to protect the females in their own household, but they can accurately judge the right and wrong of other people's M/F relationships??? There is NO WAY to see other's situations clearly when sin is involved and most ESPECIALLY when the SAME KIND of sin is involved. The Bible is CLEAR, CLEAR, CLEAR about that. So again, my mistake on the initial "C" person, but when you jump to conclusions like this over how someone registered on to FactNet, it's easy to see why so many other "facts" here are way, way off. Same with you "jumping to conclusions" about "why wasn't Denny helped out of Indy then" when he SNUCK out of Indy -- his choice. The list could go on and on... But you all are free to continue believing whatever you want to believe. I'm not here to "defend" anything but to graciously, one last time, try and provide you with an opportunity to see that this stuff is just way, way off and from the BIBLE ***WHY*** it's off. Gotta run... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:01 pm:

And so goes the history of the world as it has for the last 2000 years... Another "site" will go up "pointing out" the so-called falacies of another group of people, but still no one really is pointed to what it is that God does want in the church. That is, history shows it's far, far, far easier to point out supposed "error" than it is to rise above it as men, gird up the loins of one's heart and mind, and lead people to the Truth. If we as men have the gumption to call down people, then we at the same time share in the responsibility to provide an ANSWER and a real SOLUTION to those issues -- based on the TRUTH (of our lives as a demonSRATION of Reality) and the (untwisted) SCRIPTURES and not just expressing our "whiny feelings" about it. It's highly doubtful that this new "site" will rise to meet that call. But instead will serve as yet another site to villify yet another group of people as has been our history as men for the last 2000 years. A little story to make the point because this kind of reaction is so engrained in the constitution of fallen man, that it's almost assumed to be "normal course": Years ago, I was once living with some folks in a church situation in the New England area. Having heard a lot of good things about the church there as well as a lot of very ugly things (as is the case in this thread), I decided the only way to know was to go and check it out myself and disregard all the 2nd and 3rd hand "reports." I thought it ironic that the nay-sayers were nay-saying the very things I thought the church was lacking at the time -- commitment, discipleship, togetherness, and a number of other things -- in the middle of a very weak expression of "church" themselves. Not to mention that a lot of the biggest, most outspoken opponets of this church had never even been there. (Again, not unlike this thread.) So I left college, drove 1000 miles, and "moved in" for a summer to check things out. Suffice it to say, there were some very positive things in that situation, but there were also some problems as well to be sure. I ultimately decided I needed to move on. Now here's the kicker. Here's what I'm talking about: One of their leaders in discussing with me my intentions to leave got a little energetic at one point, pointed his finger at me and declared, "I know what you are going to do! You are going to leave here and go off and write a book about us, telling everyone that we are a cult!" Did you get that? That was that guy's honest estimation of what I was going to do. WHY DID HE THINK THAT???!!!??? Because THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE DO WHEN THEY ARE HURT, BITTER, ANGRY, RESENTFUL, SPITEFUL, MISUNDERSTAND, CONFUSED, or any one of 100 other different kinds of REACTIONS to that sort of thing. It's a lot easier to "write a book" (or "put up a web site") than it is to do something with our lives (in a sacrificial way) about the things we've seen and heard. When we REACT in any of those ways and other non-Christlike ways when we are hurt, bitter, confused, spiteful, enraged, jealous, envious or what have you -- pick your reation -- that's what we do.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:11 pm:

This is the "reactionary response" that I mentioned from my first posting that I said I would write about and never did. Now measure that kind of response to the response Christ and the early apostles had to pain, hurt, betrayal, confusion, stuff they didn't understand, misunderstandings, accusations, etc. They never did REACT that way (eg. spewing and venting and "warning" and finger pointing and accusing and on and on and on and on... even if it was "bad".) That's why I said it doesn't matter if these guys tied you up behind a wagon and drug you over a gravel road at 60 mph while reading scriptures to you from the back of the wagon. Christ's REACTION to mistreatment of certifiable wrongs was NEVER as it has been here in this forum or the spinoff blogs or this new site that is going up. Never. (The "reactions" issues is aside from the fact that I've already detailed eye-witness accounts of gross misconduct that lead to separation in Indy. The stuff that happened there was real and not based on the false accusation here, but real, horrific SIN that the folks in Indy rightly cared about, did something about, and even lavished love and money on those people after the consequences of their certifiable actions witnessed by many. These are the kinds of people behind this new "web site" by the way.) The reactions of people who have lived in Indianapolis and any one of a million other situations -- whether actually "bad" situations or not -- over the last 2000 years has caused untold heartache, crusades, wars, inquisitions, separations, mutilations, deaths, torturings, genocides, racial purgings and so many other disgusting things over the course of the last 2000 years. That leader in that church I was in at the time didn't consciously recognize that, but he did react in line with common expectation. Because so few people in the history of the world react like Christ did to pain, hurt, betrayal, indignancy, threat, misunderstanding, confusion, bitterness, anger, rage, malice, jealousy, envy or any other kind of reaction you would care to point out. Well, I never did write that book, and I never got around to putting up a www.let-me-warn-you-about-this-church-cult-whatever.com web site. Why? Mainly because that's not how Jesus reacts. Instead, He calls people to "get on with it" themselves. If something you were "in" wasn't "it" then Jesus says, "Then get on with it. You now have an obligation not to spend your life 'pointing out error' and being a new 'expert' on something, but to die to yourself more and become an example and a leader to what it is that I do want -- starting with your response and reaction, just as I did, my friend..." (Since it stands to reason if you "reject" something, you by implication have to be rejecting it in comparision to some other standard you judge to be True.) You have 70 years on this planet, folks, give or take. 80 if you are lucky. You can spend your whole life doing this kind of stuff, or you can give your life away, which Jesus commanded, and thereby gain Real Life. You can waste it doing what man has done for the last 2000 years, and continue the cycle (while the world sits by and honestly states that there IS no God because they really CAN'T see the real church while we are busy with this kind of JUNK), or you can spend it in a way that so, so, so few people in the history of mankind have done. It's up to you.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 2:17 pm:

Finally... You all can "debate" whether a certain thing in the city of Indianapolis is "of God" or not; "Indy" doesn't really matter. Because one thing is WITHOUT debate: God Himself said that FEW there will be that find what it is He wants and Live it. FEW is what our Lord declared. He said most people -- the majority -- will ADAMANTLY DISAGREE, and ACTIVELY OPPOSE and REJECT the Truth and His Will, and most of those people will do so "in My name," "twisting" the Truth to suit their agendas of gain, esteem of men, or self-promotion. So keep that in mind those of you who may be taken in by this new "site." Most people will disagree with God and oppose what it is He really wants regardless of "where" it is, by His decree. As it has been for the last 2000 years and therefore will continue to be... -ChrisO "How foolish are those who have murmurings in their mouths, and rebellion in their hearts at the very things the Holy Spirit has measured to them for their good." -Watchman Nee

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:51 pm:

Here's further proof that the pagans of the world (as I have mentioned several times) have a better grip on how to see and address various "drug addictions" than those who proport to be "christians" do. And WHY it is that most of the world turns their nose at "christianity" because they accurately appraise their own ability to deal with real problems as BETTER than the "christian" world. They are accurate in determining that sometimes -- after much love, patience, kindness, constant forgiveness, many chances, and thousands and thousands of dollars spent!!! -- REAL LOVE "pushes people out the door" (for a season) so they can hit rock bottom, WAKE UP, and finally GET SOME HELP for their addictions. Most of the so-called "christian" world worships a "god of Looooooovvvvve" that is no where to be found in the Bible in that sense. Grace and real love and forgiveness are EASILY and READILY extended to those who realize they need HELP (which is all of us -- I myself have needed it and am glad to have received it -- instead of DISPUTING it [reference the Watchman Nee quote I posted previously]). But for those who "posture" and make excuses, or live in denial (as is the case in this forum -- Jen recently denying that ANYTHING happened in ANY cases), or "demands their rights", then sometimes "tough love" (as the world more accurately sees BETTER than so-called "believers") is necessary -- AS GOD HAS SAID as well, if we would but trust, believe and OBEY HIM instead of making excuses and setting up "cult" boards that villify people who take Him at His word and simply OBEY: (Do you think that in the pagan world, "family rights" ALWAYS "trump" certain kinds of crimes and sin??? Again, a clearer view seems to prevail in the pagan world...): http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14059887/

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 1:53 pm:

By the way, some of you in here use language that is so VULGAR and UNHOLY that I can't even cite the words here as examples. And the fact that no one else in here has taken the time to ADMONISH those using such language puts you in the same UNHOLY alliance with them, according to God. It's clear that nothing in here, no matter how diabolical, is off limits as long as it meets the predetermined end. If you aren't going to admonish obvious sin in this forum, then it places you in league with those who do it because it shows the hearts in here are "okay" with it and demonstrates EXACTLY why it is you all have such a "hard time" with people who DO take things like this very seriously and have the GUTS to say something about it (which is very germane to the existance of this entire thread). If you want to call people like that a "cult" go ahead, but that's not the reason to call someone a "cult". Instead, "a cult" turns out here to be simply someone you all don't agree with. (Hopefully you guys bought enough server space to add the many other believers around the world that take Jesus seriously as well, since there are MANY out there. Not just "Indy"...) I know all this will be hotly disputed and diagreed with, but so be it. The pagans have more wisdom and accurate vision than anyone in this forum has thus far demonstrated. Your so-called "cult" board is going to be nothing more than a slanted "We don't agree board" because you don't agree with God and the pagans can see it more clearly than you can without even a Biblical mandate as the article demonstrates. We are after all, in nearly every case brought up in this forum, talking about a "drug addiction" of one sort or another and just because the "symptoms" may not be exactly the same as in the article (though actually not far off in a lot of cases...?) doesn't mean a deep sin addiction doesn't need the same serious treatment as God decrees. THAT'S why and the ONLY REASON WHY these so-called "issues" that DanRepent says he doesn't want to "watch like TV" are happening folks. And I tip my hat to the pagans who at least go about these kinds of things with SOME semblance of wisdom even. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 2:54 pm:

DanRepent: It would be wrong for me to purposefully "goad" you and that is surely not my intent. But I thought it ironic that you said you didn't want to "watch those things like TV." Interesting, that's EXACTLY what the folks in your situation likely felt concerning whatever measures they took there that have you so fumed. I don't have the details, but I know that the attitude is exactly that: No one is going to sit around and watch people actively engage in sin (we aren't talking about PAST REPENTED of sins, Jen), and do NOTHING about it like they are "watching TV." So it's so ironic that you "put it" that way. And IF there are persons in families (and everyone is usually in a family -- few people live alone, so I'm not sure how that "trumps" acting on God's word) who CLAIM to be "Christians" but overlook obvious sin in their own lives or the lives around them -- like the overlooking of the VULGAR and VILE language used in this forum -- this it's EASY to see how those people would necessarily come into "conflict" with those that take that kind of thing seriously as Jesus asked them to do. I mean if you have a husband or a wife situation where either one "calls" themselves a "christian" but can use the word "a_al" rather indiscriminately around their spouse who SEES, SEES, SEES!!!! that that kind of language can't POSSIBLY come from God (according to James and other writings), then there SHOULD necessarily be "friction" in that relationship according to ***JESUS*** (not some guy named "Mike" whoever). Not because someone "told them" to, but because the Spirit of God in a person is going to be PROVOKED (very mightily) against someone like that ESPECIALLY if they CALL themselves a "Christian." Good grief, man, this happens all over the WORLD with people who take God seriously. That's just one example (the use of the tongue in a vulgar way and then defending it while still calling themselves a "Christian"). Just because someone "calls" themself a Christian and "goes to church" means NOTHING. Jesus said "weigh the fruit" and "make a RIGHT judgment" (there IS such a thing according to Jesus). And if you have someone with a mouth like that (again as just one example of many, but one we are seeing on this forum as perhaps a "clue" why people here are so "upset" with so-called "judging"), and they still defend themselves as a "Christian saved by grace" -- then you DO have a real serious problem on your hands. One that many people in this world who love Jesus and take Him seriously (not just Indy!!!) aren't going to stand by and "watch live TV." AND THAT, my friend, maybe more than anything thus far written is as good an exlanation as I or anyone can give for just why these things happen and why certain thoughts and feelings regarding a "christianity" that allows open sin (and DEFENDS it!) exist. Not to mention all the junk "drug addictions" people have found themselves in, and their spouses and Christian friends who know God and are PROVOKED by that kind of behavior -- after talking, and trying, and loving, and forgiving, and spending -- are left with no other recourse, as once again, the pagans see better (as cited in the article I just posted above). -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 2:54 am:

UltimateTruthSeeker: It was fairly easy to predict at the moment I wrote what I wrote what your response was going to be to the "vulgar" thing and how you were going to "brush it off." But I thought I'd just wait and let you do it. So... Next time your boss strikes you as "a_al retentive", why don't you call him that to his face? Since it's "hardly ever conceived as meaning it's graphical representation, it's so commonly used." Go ahead. He'll never think anything of it. Not according to the Gospel of Google anyway. And while you are at it, there is another word in the English language for a "donkey" -- I'm mean, that's all it really means -- so feel free to use that one too on your boss or anyone else that you can "pin the tail on", and still feel you aren't vulgar and completely full of the Spirit of God. See... You know good and well that it's a very derogatory and vulgar term that someone with God's spirit would never use, but you want to make it seem like it's perfectly "okay." IF you and others here are really so spiritual BANKRUPT that you are going to use "Google" to determine what is "of God" and "not of God" (or what a "cult" is or not), then it's very, very, very easy to see why you have such a "hard time" with Mike Peters and anyone ELSE who takes their "cues" from another source -- far outside of "Google." -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:16 am:

GetAGrip: Well man, seriously, you are probably right. I probably should have pulled outta here a long time ago really, but there have been a few things here and there that I felt worth "replying" to though generally I don't even directly address anyone in here any more since the agenda has been clear for a long time and so I write mainly for our readers at home. From your last comment, it would seem to me that you yourself have certainly been "swayed" by the shanagans in here. Put it this way: we (me and them) can't both be right. I assure you, I wouldn't be wasting my time here in at all or writing so adamantly if I didn't know for a fact that the people in here are diabilically bent on one agenda no matter what is said. I have personal, first-hand, eye-witness experience with most of the details and people they've mentioned in here, and again I promise you if we could get in a court-room where every "talking head" in here could have the bag lifted off his head and we could see eye to eye and we could present witnesses and verifiable evidence in front of an objective, non-biased jury, most of the people in here would be absolutely embarrassed. They conveniently leave out details, or describe things in such a way as to cast the light only in a certain way and the real problem as Dan pointed out a long time ago before he left -- which I should be doing, as you rightly suggest -- is that it's impossible to sort out the truth in this format. It just is. We don't have anyone both objective and with the proper authority here to sort out fact from fiction. But again, I promise you if we could most people in here would be thoroughly embarrassed. It's not a coincidence that most people in here are not revealing their real names, Jen and Dennis excluded of course. (Another case where someone named "Franz" was just mentioned... Aside from knowing Franz and his wife since before they were married and in Indy, I personally also lived in the same city with Franz and his wife for over a year and lived in his house for an entire month while this "sitation" described was going on. So I know a little bit about that situation to say the least. Again, I can assure you the "talking heads" in here are presenting things only in such a way as to further their pre-determined "cause." That was a highly volatile situation with a lot at stake for everyone involved in that household. Very ugly decisions were being made by individuals in his household that the leadership in any church in America (or any normal pagan for that matter) would have considered very dangerous, scary, and tough to navigate. But those outside the situation who know little of the real decision-making being made in the middle of a very bad situation, sit outside and "judge" it. No life, person, or family situation there in Indy is sacred enough for them to leave alone, but rather they skew the details and hint at it publicly -- when it's nobody's business ultimately but Franz's -- at the risk of causing even more harm and grief in those situations. Talk about Dennis or anyone else here and you get a VOLCANIC ERUPTION and a "How DARE you speak of that!!! It's no one else's business!!!" But anyone there in Indy is fair game as long as it can be skewed to "prove their point" no matter who it may hurt now by mentioning it (children, wives, etc. -- and people here "claim" they are so concerned for "marriages.") I promise you, this new "cult" board is sizing itself up to cause more harm in collatoral damage than it supposedly "warns" about. Won't THAT be incredibly ironic???)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:19 am:

But I'm here because they asked for me to be here. When they asked for "former members" I don't think they ever supposed that someone would answer in support of Indy because blinded by their own arrogance, pride, indignation, and pre-supposing of "facts" (which is why things in here are so slanted and many of their judgements were made while they were in the middle sin at the time [no one is averse to forgiveness afterwards, but Jesus said your vision is off when you are in the middle of it, period]), they actually thought there would be no one to come to their defense. And I know others would if they knew about it, but they just don't. This thread is still a relatively unknown corner of the internet. I know there are many people all over the world who know of the very high quality, unpretentious life in that city that would have the same serious problems reading what I am reading if they knew about it. They just don't know right now. And if anyone believes this new so-called "cult" site is going to be "objective"... Like I said, it stands more likely it will cause a lot more damage than it "warns" about. And you can be sure they aren't going to allow any input into it from people who may actually support the lives in Indy (and see the accusations and "twisted facts" on that site). I know a person who's tried to post to Dennis' "knows-a-lot" board, and guess what? His comment wasn't posted, because the board is "moderated" by Dennis and of course since he didn't like this person's comment, it wasn't allowed to show up on the board. Only comments which presupport Dennis' "bent" are going to be allowed. As will be the case with this "cult" site. No surprises there... So much for being interested in "truth." Thank God the pagan courtroom isn't run the way folks here run things.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 6:27 am:

One last mention: I've been to many, many, many churches of all denominations all over America -- mainline, off-shoots, "radical" and some others might consider "cults," staying in the homes of many of these churches, not just "visiting" their worship services -- so my experience is fairly broad, and I can assure you the people in Indy are by no means what they are being accused of. (People here act like others have no experience with real "cults" or are so naive about or are completely uninvested in the current spiritual landscape.) As I've already described in other posts, they aren't a bunch of "push overs" either. Most of the people there, as I've already posted, are from all walks of life, many with advanced degrees working in some of the most well recognized companies in America. I know that doesn't "prove" anything but all I'm trying to say is that, having been there, they are very, very, very normal, reasonable, fun-loving people in that regard. I'm too am just a normal American like everyone else (I'm a security analyst for a Fortune 100 company with a family living in an "upper suburbia" middle class neighborhood where I speak to my neighbors, play with their children and mine, non-judgmentally reach out to others, get up and go to work every day, and daily just try to live for Jesus -- not unlike everyone else in Indy -- very similar in that regard), only looking for a little more than what your average "church" offers. And how many people now and in the past have done that (eg. looked for a little more)??? I've been in "cult" situations as an observer sometimes for months at a time, and "cults" exhibit very "peculiar" behavior of which these folks exhibit none in that regard. What we ultimately have here, GetAGrip, is a lot of mad people who couldn't "have their way" (because the people there aren't push-overs, stupid, blind, or easily manipulated as I said) and they aren't happy about it. If the "talking heads" were revealed I could get more specific as I can with Jen and Dennis who have other people they are "mad at" because they have a history not just with Indianapolis of having "run ins" with people, and when they don't get their way, they start screaming "CULT!!!!" And those are the kinds of "We're mad at you" people (not just Dennis and Jen, but people who have good reason to remain anonymous) now setting up a "cult" board or running blogs on people I know personally that aren't even remotely close to a cult. They aren't "mainline" I agree -- but that's public knowledge for anyone to see at their web site. They don't claim to be. But they are certifiably not a cult and not being "mainline," or having people who "disagree" with them, or having a handful of people really upset with them doesn't automatically make them one. Well, I really should take your advice seriously and just move along... Ciao, -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:42 pm:

Guys... I've already answered all these questions (before you even asked no less since your intentions, thinking and tendancies were apparent a long time ago) esp. in my very first string of posts. See post #1, point #1 and the paragraph immediately after that list of sins where I stated "my sins [were] in the list" and why I and others needed to leave at the time. While you are at it, just reread all the points I made in my first string of posts -- all are still true as well as everything else: how far away I live from them, how long it's been since I've seen any of them (actually going on 4 years now), etc. Not to mention "adding up" everything else I've written... I answered you then (before you even asked) and I'm answering you now by re-highlighting my thoroughness in already answering all these questions, and it's not likely to change a thing. So that is that. Maybe try and understand that pointing out real and/or imagined "cults" isn't going to change the world for God or ultimately help anyone. It just spreads even more lies, false accusations, confusion, distrust, paranoia, fear, dissention, hurt, pain, and division. Which is why no extensive, prolonged diatribes exist in scriptures on the cults of the early church -- and there were many. Because Paul and the other apostles and early believers that saw and knew God didn't have time for this kind of stuff and it doesn't "help" like you think it will. What could be more important considering the pervasive nature and faith destroying force of some of those cults in those days then Paul, Apollos or others writing a serious treatise on them? But they did none of that. (Because pointing out "error" doesn't help people fix error. What's your solution if "Indy" isn't "it"??? That's what helps people...) Instead, trust God that He is faithful to keep His promise that for those that seek God with all their hearts, they will find Him, in spite of any garbage that is out there, real or imagined. Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice" and those that are truly His, He will keep safe and He will never allow them to fall away. So trust God that that is the case and that those that really care will ultimately find Him. That was promised way before you all of anyone living in Indy was even born. Again, the early church did none of this and there were easily a dozen or so real and very serious cults in that day as well as they themselves being imagined by many as a "cult." No lengthy diatribes, no scriptures written (only small sections in scriptures we do have warning that things like that would happen), no "ministries conpletely devoted to helping others out of cults," etc. consumed the early church's time. They simply went on living and loving the people around them which is the best way and only way to "destroy the works of the devil." The evidence for what I am saying is clear in that with a dozen or so very serious cults in their day, not one single christian or apostle ever took up a pen and wrote anything approaching the length (or tenor, in particular) of this thread much less something as pervasive as FactNet, Indiana Families against Whatever, and the thousands and thousands of other books, web sites, and other "helps" out there. Nor the site you are in the process of "building" now...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 7:44 pm:

That's why I left that "cultish" group in the New England area with nary a word, blog, web site, book written or anything else. Was there danger there? Somewhat. But there was way more danger (on several fronts) in writing about it and "pointing it out" than in anything they happened to be doing "wrong." What a paradox. Few people consider that kind of possibility. Not to mention the traps that are inherit for anyone setting themselves up as an "expert" like that. It's such a huge trap. So I let 'em be. History shows that everything not of God eventually caves in on itself (as the NE "cult" has been doing on it's own for the last 4-5 years with very little "outside" assistance.) And the people who loved God just keep on moving and searching and loving Him. I'm not saying all this because I'm "scared" of this new web site, nor would I suspect anyone in Indy is either if I were to ask them, which I have not. As I've already stated, if we could get in a sitation where everyone here could be known, witnesses could be produced and cross-examined, and verifiable evidence presented, this would turn out much differently than you portray or will portray on your new "cult" web site. I'm only asking that you consider the evidence presented by the silence of the early Christians, apostles, and prophets potificating on any such topic at length when there were dozens of serious cults then as there are today (just not the church you happen to "disagree" with in particular right now simply because they had the guts to stand up to your shinanagans and believe and obey Jesus in everything.) An example: I work with a Mormon at work. He's a nice guy, but "Mormonism" is certainly a dangerous "cult" for a variety of reasons. Now I can love Him to Jesus by being like Jesus and demonstrating with my life a real solution while seldom mentioning anything (if at all) about "Mormonism is a cult"... Or I can rake him over the coals, write books and monthly/weekly blogs about his "religion," "warning" other people about him and asking people to "stay away from Bill" (not his real name), and point Bill to my super-duper "fact filled" Mormon, "cult-proving" web site. Whooo-weeee, yeah... Seriously, which do you honestly thing is going to move Bill towards God and Jesus? Which takes and demonstrates more integrity, spiritual depth of insight, and personal sacrifice? Point people to a solution and let the "problems" (real or imagined) be taken care of by time, inertia, and an all-powerful, all-in-control God. Not that any of what I just wrote will do any good, but at least you were given opportunity to consider it. Now back to what GetAGrip rightly suggested and to the life I am describing here for your own consideration... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:21 pm:

My original post, reposted here at the request of DanRepent: Well Dennis, Jen, GottaPost, Cult_Fighter, UltimateTruthSeeker, FirstTruth and others... You asked for other former "members of the Indianapolis church" to write, so here goes: First a few things up front to help those with honest hearts. Everyone else that already has their minds made up... This probably isn't going to help, but... In an attempt to be completely truthful and honest, here are a few things to consider: (1) Of the 20 or so years folks under dispute here have made their homes in Indianapolis, I and my family have lived there for a total of about 4 years. That's roughly 20% of the time that church has existed. Of the various neighborhoods that people live in or have lived in over the years (yes, people there *do* live close enough in normal, modest homes just like millions of other Americans in order to CARE practically for one another, though many here on FactNyet have a different reading entirely on that) I have lived in three of them. One of those places (TF), Mr. Dennis lived in for his 5 week "visit." I say all this crazy, somewhat irrelevant stuff so that people know I wasn't there for some couple week visit. I *lived* there for years, right in the middle of it all, and as a result... (2) I personally know many of the people who have posted here both those of you who are taking a very adversarial and dim view of your time there as well as those who still live there. Some of you here on FactNyet I feel I know pretty well, which leads me to... Some VERY important additional points: (3) MIKE PETERS DID ***NOT*** ASK ME TO POST THIS nor did anyone in ANY of the cities mentioned in this thread. This is COMPLETELY 100% on my own. Mike did NOT ask me to do this. Mike did not see one single word here before I wrote it or posted it. Mike did not give his prior "approval" or "dissent" before making this post. Nor did anyone else from anywhere else. (4) What I will be posting here -- since YOU GUYS ASKED -- are MY OWN thoughts, MY OWN experiences, and MY OWN convictions of why *I* was asked to leave and also my first hand knowledge of persons on this so-called "list" that someone posted. There are reasons why we ALL needed to leave, including me and my family, that many here are not owning up to but instead seem to have allowed the bitterness of these years to fester up and DEFILE MANY as scripture declares it WILL when you don't deal with bitterness and SPECIFIC SIN. (The path of those that needed to leave, including myself, is not so "bright" as all here might be lead to think.) I'll provide my thoughts on that very obvious fact of bitterness here soon from the standpoint of it not mattering WHAT these guys did. If what they did was tied you up and dragged you behind a wagon over a gravel road while they read scriptures to you, the responses and the reactions here are distinctly NOT like Christ, the murdered and slaughtered Lamb, in the least. And since THAT is probably readily apparent to anyone with an honest heart that reads this thread in it's entirety, the only reason I even feel a need to write this is to present a little bit of the other side of the story from one that was asked to leave as well and has endured MANY of the same hurts and pains you all have. GottaPost wrote in one post "I haven't been the same since and I doubt I ever will be." I can readily relate to that. I understand the hurt, the pain, and the confusion. BUT... we all had chances to come out the other end with Christ-likeness which, I'm sorry to say, I see painfully lacking here. We'll talk about why I feel that way later.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:22 pm:

(5) I would like to say that I am not "taking sides" here; I aim only to present to you what happened to me and others I have first-hand knowledge of as well as how I worked through it. But I also realize it would be foolish for me to think that any of you with your minds already made up are going to care. Anyone here writing in "support" of "Indy" is going to be vilified no matter WHAT he or she says and so I am prepared for the various kinds of responses I am likely to receive over this recounting. So be it. (6) Many here -- some who never even have BEEN to Indy! -- have been bold enough to "call out" various different people there and make other bold statements about "life there," some persons of which were never even involved at the front part of this thread or were originally under any kind of question. I hope since you are willing to be so candid in your efforts to unveil "the truth" by naming innocent names that you would be willing to allow me to be just as candid in unveiling a few "truths" that I find conspicuously left out in these postings. I see a lot of one-way street paving here that no one has either had the guts to point out (or at least no one outside of Indy), no one can see, or no one CARES or WANTS to see. (This use of REAL NAMES of innocent people is just one example OF MANY here in this thread of employment of one-way, self-serving, convenient logic and how people have decided to "play" here. As long as the predetermined "end justifies the means," it's all fair game. Dennis, whose name was never mentioned (he volunteered his own name) and his wife have a VOLCANIC REACTION when he is mentioned. When FirstTruth posts a list of REAL names, or GottaPost links to a PICTURE of all things and a real name.... NO REACTION. I thought that is EXACTLY how you felt your name was dragged into the mud, Dennis? And your stated "deep care" for the people who used to live in Indy... wouldn't/shouldn't that drive you to CHASTISE FirstTruth and GottaPost for their actions in posting real names? Hmmm... But since it's not YOU being dragged through the mud and it serves your purposes, all the better. Not mentioned people here throwing Matthew 23 around when convenient, etc.) Which brings me to the last two introductory points... (7) I don't live there NOW and I haven't lived there or been there for over 3 years. Nor do I live in ANY of the other places mentioned in this thread. So that means I can only recount what I saw when I was there, but my period of time there does encompass a first-hand knowledge of many people here and on "the list" that was presented a few posts back as I've already stated. (8) Most of what I say here is going to be completely restricted (as I stated in point #4 above) to either what I saw there (including from some of you guys here on FactNyet... sorry, but you asked!) or what you yourselves have already stated here for the world to see. Finally, I'm probably a FOOL for even venturing to do this, but a combination of (1) the out and out LIES about people in Indianapolis (which I don't even have time to touch on or attempt to correct here based on what I know personally, nor would it do any good), (2) the continual employment of one-way, convenient, self-serving "logic" and street paving as well as details conveniently left out about those that HAVE left, and (3) my own rescue over bitterness and caving in to the effects of my own sins, had I not repented (some of my own sins I consider worse than any thus far listed here), cause me to venture that this might help SOMEONE with the record set just a little more straight.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:24 pm:

First I'd like to address a few of you: Jen: I have absolutely nothing against you, and I can appreciate your faithfulness to your husband, which is apparent throughout this thread. I'm sure that was important to him in the healing process since it's apparent his sin hurt him more than it hurt you as scripture says ("...he who unites himself... ...sins against his own body..."). Many women would not "bear up" under such revelation and I share everyone else's joy that it isn't that way any more. But Jen... You were NEVER IN INDY. The only insight you have into what happened there is what Denny told you. It should be obvious to EVERYONE reading this that your "view" of Indy is reduced to a SINGLE view and that that person's views -- Denny's! -- are WELL COMPREHENDED throughout. Whether or not Denny happens to be "right" or "wrong" is, as they would say in a court of law, "immaterial" or "immaterial evidence." Your testimony in a court of law would be invalid and thrown out immediately since you cannot possibly have an objective view or first hand knowledge of the events, places, and persons under discussion here. You are in no position to comment, declare, attempt to detail, help others, or anything else like that. That's just the facts, Jen, as ANY court of law in this country would view it. I'm not trying to be ugly and your faithfulness as I said is commendable to some degree and certainly understandable. I'm not saying you can't post here any more because you have every right to. But in examination of any REAL evidence (which everyone is calling for here!), your opinion is in fact tainted even if Denny is correct in everything he says. Does that make sense? If not, I'm sure it will make sense to many others reading this, so it's worth pointing out. Your "testimony" and so-called (and self-established, I might add) "expertise" -- other than that restricted to your husband at the time and from the time you first met him -- would be THROWN out in court (and should be here by anyone reading here with a mind towards what is RIGHT), including your recounting of what he did or didn't do before you met him even if he is telling the complete truth (which I am not implying he is not). That's JUST the way it would be in a court of law if we really cared about getting to the truth. And I'm assuming everyone here is aiming for that since that seems to be the common rallying cry here, with some even choosing names like "UltimateTruthSeeker." Does this make sense to you, UltimateTruthSeeker? Is that what you REALLY want? FirstTruth? You too? This is also worth pointing out because in *God's* court, we're dealing with some very, very serious stuff -- some very serious accusations. lies, and omissions of truth (called "withholding of evidence" in a court of law -- a punishable offense). And if we're going to be diving into people's lives, then we need to apply some very serious rules. Rules that run BOTH WAYS. Frankly folks, it's been an absolute free-for-all in here, and you all can't have it both ways. You can't "call on witnesses" as you have done, and not play by fair and legal rules that even U.S. judges employ in courts of law high and low all over this land every single day. (But here? It's open season...)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:25 pm:

Denny: I'd like to address a little bit of the "one way street paving" on your part... You say that Mike and the others in Indy couldn't POSSIBLY have obtained an inside and clear view of your life since you were only in Indy for 5 weeks. Okay... fine. THEN HOW COME **YOU*** CAN CLAIM THAT SAME RIGHT TO HAVE AN INSIDE, OBJECTIVE AND ALL-REVEALING VIEW OF THEM based on the same length of exposure???? That seems a little one-sided to me. You have the right to post writing after writing on this thread for the whole world to see, set up email addresses and phone numbers or what have you to "help others see the evils in Indy" but you at the same time disallow them to hold the same right with you. That can't be, dude. If you guys were together for the SAME AMOUNT OF TIME, then you can't claim a right that you are denying them (vehemently, I might add). You can't possibly have a better more penetrating, more objective and true view of them that they had of you. IF that is your stance and premise. But this thread is absolutely FILLED with your writings made on that slight-of-hand premise alone!!! In a court of law in this country using this very same reasoning (instead of the one-way, self-serving logic you are employing), every "Objection!" you have raised based on that premise would be over-ruled. Sorry dude, but you can't have it both ways. Now for you PERSONALLY... I was in TF when you lived there. I have never, ever, even when I lived there had one single initiated conversation with anyone about you, just so that's clear. No one has ever told me anything about "what you did." I was not in Mike's basement when you did or did not proclaim yourself as a "whatever" or practice like you were in a rock band with an alter call. So I can neither confirm nor deny any of it. But I *can* say that: I noticed an uncanny pre-occupation with Mike Peters while you were there. It doesn't really matter whether you confirm or deny it. I'm telling you what my own over-riding, first-hand, eye witness impression was, and that DOES count for something since I was THERE. People there respect Mike (as well as several others) as a leader, but I personally knew of no one else there that was as PRE-OCCUPIED with him as you were. Specific "prayer requests" to "help Mike" and talk of "Mike" was very frequent with you just about any time we got together in TF. If you are going to insinuate that others there are pre-occupied and "under his spell" then I would have to say that my own personal impression of you was that that was a pre-dominate feature during your brief time there. I find it supremely ironic that having never spoken directly with you, but having been in NUMEROUS meeting and living room situations with you that his name was on your lips A LOT. In a very weird and uncomfortable way. (Why would we all have been "uncomfortable" with Dennis' level of pre-occupation if we "adored" and "venerated" Mike?) And many others expressed similar feelings that something was very weird and unsettling about that. (And when I say no one ever spoke to me about you, I mean no one ever came up to me and said, "Hey, watch out for that dude." or "Hey did you know Denny did such and such?" No one ever spoke behind your back to me unsolicited. That is, your "sins" were never discussed nor were leading conversations ever initiated with me about you while you were there.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:26 pm:

It's easy to predict what your response to this might be and that is that you might admit that that was ONCE your disposition, but now it most certainly is not how you feel. I think even THAT response could be debated based on the fact that: - At least one of the moderators got on this thread 40-50 posts back and asked you point blank: "Ah, Denny... Do you think you've made your point already?" HIS honest and objective impression seemed to be that your rabid and vehement and constant postings were just a little bit much and that you have an unhealthy pre-occupation with this person even now. That's the view of someone with nothing at stake in this thread, seemingly. - You personally admit (here in FactNyet) to stewing over this for 12 years and then circling back to finding out where Mike was, what he was doing, and who he might be with. You wrote that, dude. That seems a little incriminating to me. In a court of law, again (if we can keep reducing this down to a level where at least there exists SOME potential of little or no dispute), based on that statement and and the "spirit" of your writings, you seem very pre-occupied with a certain individual, who has made every attempt to leave you alone these 12 years, in a weird and alarming sort of way. So maybe it would be wiser to "back off" a little on those others you accuse of being pre-occupied and "under the spell" of Mike, especially when then and now, your pre-occupation was and is MOST unsettling and distinctly abnormal and has been exhibited WAY MORE than anyone else I know there or not there. I've got nothing against you, Dennis, and I barely know you. But those are my honest, first-hand, eye witness impressions of how you carried yourself IN PUBLIC (for many eyes to see) on NUMEROUS occasions while you were in Indy. And your use here of one-way, self-serving, unfair "logic" about who can be an "expert" on who after just 5 weeks is here for everyone to see. I don't care how many scriptures you quote here, I don't know how anyone (including yourself) can trust someone that weighs important matters like other people's lives using that kind of slight-of-hand logic and approach. You have not extended here the same courtesy you've asked of the folks in Indy. It's interesting that someone here ventured to immediately PASTE Mike Peters with a "scripture" about "Where there are many words, sin is not absent" and yet if I ran this thread through a word count, what would be the word-count "weight" on your side and those with you "in spirit?"

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:27 pm:

Let's talk about a few other details in some other lives here that I know personally that are being (I hope not pre-meditated) left out of the picture being painted here for the world to see... And we'll cover my sins too. Let's leave nothing out so the picture is CLEAR concerning those that left. GottaPost: Okay, we'll just stick with your anonymous "GottaPost" name. I'll guard the "integrity" of your personal choice in using a pseudonym even though you've chosen not to guard the lives and integrity of other real people, but rather have made a choice to name real names, link to pictures, and do other really disgusting things out of your unresolved hurt and confusion, I am very sad to see and read... with real people who have not only left you alone over the years to DO WHAT YOU WANTED TO DO (which has been one of the ROOT ISSUES for why you aren't "in Indy" any more according to my OWN EXPERIENCE with you), but who have also spent time, money and further energy on you, your wife and children (when they didn't HAVE to, but CHOSE to anyway!) on MULTIPLE OCCASIONS even after you left that city. Something folks here aren't likely to know about. Folks, I know this because I lived right next door to GottaPost in a small Southwestern city in Ohio for 18 months as well as knew GottaPost a little bit while he and his wife and family lived in Indy. GottaPost, my own experience with you, though I promise I love you still ("sweet are the words of an enemy, but bitter are the words of a FRIEND" since we're all "into" the Psalms here...), is that you were always your own final judge about any matter in your life. Serious important issues in your life always ended up "disputable" TO YOU. You were the sole judge and "seer" of your life and the very blatantly obvious elements others were seeing. It's not only hard to live with someone like that (and believe me, it was), it's down-right contrary to many scriptures. Now I wasn't in Indy when you were asked to leave. But I lived with you for 18 months, brother, and there was nothing but continual problems. Constant bickering, disputing, chaos, confusion, smoke-screens, anger, table-turning and a whole lot of not listening. And I mean BOTH OF US, okay?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:29 pm:

If any of you out there actually LIVED with GottaPost, you would discover all this and more very quickly. If you don't have any convictions about anything, then GottaPost would make a fine "Christian friend." But if you have a conviction about ANYTHING... The point is, it's CLEAR IN SCRIPTURE in MANY PLACES (and ironically in the very scripture you used most) that Jesus made a way -- COMMANDED "a way" -- a path to follow when there are questions about sin or what someone might think is sin, even if they are wrong (Matthew 18, Hebrews 3, Romans 14, and many other places). You were never truly and 100% open to that process, especially in situations involving YOU. How INCREDIBLY IRONIC, isn't it, that you accuse Mike of the same disposition when anyone that has EVER lived with you and really gotten to know you in at least two different cities (DOZENS of people) has come to that SAME conclusion about YOU!!!!????? And your life in Indy and when I lived with you was such that if YOU thought something was disputable, then it was, and if it wasn't then you were just being "victimized." (Do we need to talk about and apply your zeal for hypocrisy here too since most of your posts here direct this same kind of sentiment and accusation in Mike's direction, even if that *were* true about him?) Instead, simple questions and observations about nearly ANY real thing in your life became such an issue for you that you were completely outside of any possibility of relationship. Since you felt instantly "victimized" in Ohio as you did in Indy on nearly ANY topic brought to you, you were released to go and live however you wanted to live both in Indy and in Ohio. No pressure. People backed out and gave you the space you clearly wanted and needed.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:30 pm:

And yet, when we HAD our little issues in Ohio (even after you left Indy!), whose house was visited first by Mike when he generously gave his time to you when YOU WROTE AND ASKED FOR HIM TO COME? I've been privy to emails he sent addressed to both of us and his care for you and pre-occupation with you and your family's welfare was VERY evident to me YEARS after you and I both left Indy. No one is hearing about stuff like that. What I hear, GottaPost, to sum up your "thoughts" offered here is basically, "He had the goods on me, why can't I have the goods on him???" I hear and have seen first hand in your life over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME anger and pride and ambition, and you're bitter and FRUSTRATED that you've not been able to have your way with people who aren't going to be bullied by you and your (mis)use of Romans 14 and other scriptures so we can all just be "happy" have "a good worship time" and not address SERIOUS ISSUES. Some of which were PUBLICLY DANGEROUS and could have EASILY involved (and I think one time DID involve) the police, for heavens sake!!! Do I need to mention specific instances like the time you stopped a car in the middle of the road on your street and CURSED OUT the driver in front of your CHILDREN, who were absolutely HORRIFIED at what they saw on display? This was semi-regular stuff with you, man!! That doesn't sound like "leadership" material to me; not yet anyway, though I would never say you COULDN'T BE. But NOT when the qualifications for leadership according to Acts, Titus, Timothy and other places are that one be OBSERVABLY FULL of the Holy Spirit and Wisdom and Galatians gives us a clear picture that that is NOT being full of the HS and Wisdom. Your OWN CHILDREN, both the ones saved and unsaved at the time, who witnessed that incident knew and expressed to me how UNWISE *THAT* one incident was. And if the police had seen it, you would likely have been arrested based on how your children recounted it to me since I'm leaving out some details even on THAT incident. Do you care that you endangered the custody of your own children by that kind of shenanigan as well as OTHER things you've done that I'll also refrain from mentioning here???

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:31 pm:

And just so there isn't any "table-turning" about "See?! See how your sins are recounted and brought up to 'keep you down' everyone!" Remember that Galatians, Acts, Timothy, etc. COMMANDS us all to NOT ALLOW someone like that to be a "leader" until that stuff is clearly and observably absent in your life. So it's not "Mike" that's keeping/kept you down, but those kinds of sins which you're not letting everyone else here see (which is EXACTLY why places like this are dark, dark, dark, "cloak and dagger" places where more work for satan is carried out than for God, though I'm sure through FactNyet *some* are helped.) See, here on FactNyet, no one knows that you have (had? I hope?) anger problems observable to your own children and those who have TRIED desperately to live with you, along with pride, ambition, bitterness, re-occurring fits of rage, and other specifics I could go into but won't because I'm only trying to help you and others understand why you left Indy in the first place. You wanted to live how you wanted to live, be a leader but not be accountable to leaders (sounds a lot like one-way street paving again to me), and you were simply released to do that. No one is shielding you from past relationships rather more than likely what has happened is those that SEE past some of your smoke-screens (and MINE!! -- remember the letter to you detailing how DECEITFUL I was?? See, it's not "just you"!!) simply can't bear to continue the charade with you any longer. It's not "Mike" telling them to "leave you alone" but rather they themselves don't want to be around you any more!!! I know all that's hard to hear, brother, but your expressed interest in the truth here should provide me some room to say it. You can't live how you want to live (ungodly) and still maintain "Godly" relationships and have it both ways. Sin KILLS relationships, both the Bible and the evening news are clear about that. And remember your propensity to "feel victimized" and yet you lowered yourself here to naming real names and pointing out real faces on web sites out of bitterness and pride. Never mind that that guy you specifically pointed out "in picture" also drove over 100+ miles once to see you in Ohio, taking time off work and away from HIS family to come see you YEARS AFTER you left Indy because you asked him to, but no one knows about that either. So much for "cut off" relationships... I've known him for almost 30 years, and I know he'd do it AGAIN if he thought there was half-a-nickel's chance it would help you overcome these long-running issues in your life. But no one here still knows who you really are (doubly so, huh?) since I never used your real name.......

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:33 pm:

Others on that "list" that someone posted... Again not naming names, but I've lived with a lot of them, though I don't know all of them. Some of them have actually lived in my home or I in theirs. There's not one single person on that list that I personally haven't observed deep spiritual problems exhibited, including myself. Some of the problems, issues and REOCCURRING sins that persons on that list (as well as some left off that list)exhibited on SPECIFIC occasions that I myself saw or know about from first-hand, eye witness experience: - Overt jealousy, anger and fits of rage (melt-downs and anger of such degree as I have never seen before, some right in my living room) by several on that list (and I'm not talking again about GottaPost). - Leaving of spouse and children and engagement in adultery. (But now, that's okay. Sandi Pattie and others do it to "augment" their spiritual "singing careers", so why worry? Adultery and putting away your husband for all kinds of reasons, esp. to be with someone "more spiritual" is okay now...) - Gross and perverted sexual sins -- "impurity" as Paul put it -- that even pagans would frown upon. - Seduction that culminated in physical intimacy. - Visits to porn video stores, internet porn, and watching porn. - Continued, secretive, watching of some of the trashy-est, vilest television one can possible watch short of going to a video store. I'm not talking about "hiding things" from others there, but hiding from and hurting one's spouse and children. - Secret relationships at work and other places with members of the opposite sex kept (eg. lied about) from spouses, children, and loving brothers and sisters. - Sensual attitudes, overt comments, overt flirting, innuendos, and other displays of conduct towards members of the opposite sex both in the church and at work (MARRIED women, single women, and young girls) that would warrant a sexual harassment case if done and reported in a work environment. - Selfish ambition and big-time, unmistakable pride (are we going to call that a SIN folks and a serious one at that since GOD OPPOSES THE PROUD???? Are we???) - Selfish, reckless endangerment of one's self (the potential for personal, self-inflicted harm was involved) and other people around them by several on the list. - Selfish, reckless endangerment of one's family and/or children, some involving investigative work by the law. - Emotional adultery with multiple women such that the spouse involved nearly had a mental break down. Done several times. - Shoplifting. - Forgery. - Fraud.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:34 pm:

The list could go on and get more specific. And this list does NOT count all the lies, cover-ups, deceptions and smoke-screens (where do people who continue to LIE and DECEIVE end up???) employed to cover UP all that stuff and make everyone think they were "okay." (I was probably one of the worst liars and cover up artists in Indy at the time, I'm very sorry to say!) I can personally tie specific, MULTIPLE incidents of these "behaviors" (no one here on FactNyet seems to like the word "sin" really) to specific persons on that list as well as those left off the list. My own personal sins are IN the list above. These things were not isolated incidents, but went on and on and on and on... For YEARS people tried to help, talk to, intervene, be sensitive to, etc. ALL these things. Not once that I know about did someone commit even these outrageous crimes/sins were those persons were asked to leave "on the spot." (Again, that I know about.) This kind of activity when on for YEARS by people on that list. And again, what isn't going to be stated by GottaPost, Cult_Fighter, FirstTruth, Dennis, and others (who may even show up here later) that these people, including me and my family, were almost ALL given 2nd, 3rd, 4th and even 5th "chances" in other cities, other places, other occasions, often with an effort made to "relink" previous relationships from Indy (GottaPost and others are so concerned about "cut off" relationships, when the record speaks otherwise as I can personally attest in at least HALF of the cases mentioned above and some not mentioned, including in his case), and on almost every occasion the "issues" above resurfaced in those other cities and blew up those opportunities to reconnect and live in love and in Christ together. PEOPLE DID NOT WANT TO GIVE UP THEIR SINS -- THOSE SPECIFIC SINS LISTED ABOVE -- FOLKS. COME ON!!!! Am I really here on a so-called "Christian board" trying to convince people who call themselves "Christians," "UltimateTruthSeeker," "FirstTruth," and other such names that THESE ARE *SERIOUS* SINS?????!!!!! Is this FOR REAL? When I have filthy-minded, sin-hardened, pagan bosses at work that have better discernment, judgment, and conclusions about where this kind of behavior leads than anyone here appears to have or CARE about (and also how to verify and sort it out!!)? Did you know that if you commited adultery or fornicated with someone at work or were seen out with a prostitute just once even now in this ultra-decadent and hell-bent generation, it could at least alter your career at work if it became known!!!!??? And you want to vilify these people or get upset when they throw up a word of caution and pause??? This really can't be real. And if you came BACK to work after 12 years to "hunt down" someone that did act on your impropriety at work, you'd have the police at your door so quick...!! And Mike offers a "peep" and he gets PASTED??? WOW. Only in America where we have the "religious freedom" to turn facts inside out however we want on "free internet boards" like FactNyet..........

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:35 pm:

With regard to all the extra chances... I personally have had literally THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS spent on me by the folks in Indianapolis after I left (way more than when I was there), and they never ever even saw my face when doing it or even offered a HINT that I owed them anything in return. It even took me years to realize that that had even happened (1) because it was done in secret and out of care, or (2) because I was still so consumed with myself that I didn't notice. Multiply that by the names on the list that was offered and you'll begin to see why Mike and others there have NO MONEY. Some people are without a doubt still paying on CREDIT CARD DEBT WITH INTEREST for money spent on wrecked lives, hoping against ALL HOPE that there would be CHANGE in each and EVERY situation. And I have no idea what they did because they WON'T TALK ABOUT IT. So where's the "hook" in the so-called "love bombing"??? It's been pretty expensive for them, folks.... What a HUGE price to pay to "hook" and "love bomb" people. If they did this to just me and one other person on the list above, then they've spent over $10,000 I can say that much, and I haven't seen one of them for over 3 years. So even with all the JUNK and RIDICULOUS SIN, when people were asked to leave, there was compassion and concern for how that might impact those people financially and situationally. So it was never just some uncompassionate "kick out." I personally have had people there move my rather large family from from Indy to the East Coast, some 900 miles away, not only at their own financial expense (which was THOUSANDS of dollars in rental truck, gas, food, and hotel), but also at the expense of their time with their families at home (four days on the road), hauling people all over the United States, their "holiday time" (time off work they took to move someone with my kind of problems at the time, instead of using that time for their families), and their pay at work. That one move to the East Coast was at least $5000 by my estimate, maybe more since several brothers made that trip. (One brother with two jobs and 5 mouths to feed at home, working 80 hours a week usually, injured his back during my move. That didn't help HIM too much, did it?) That's one of 4-5 moves people have made with me and just for me, at THEIR expense. (Here where I live in a typical "church" setting to contrast a little bit, I can't even get people to move a few pieces of heavy furniture for 15 minutes, immediately after a "Bible" study, but hey... You guys go ahead and keep defending the "norm" out there.... :-( )

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:36 pm:

That kind of thing, I know verifiably (because some of those moves collectively involved other people on the list that was shared, so I've lived with a good number of them, in spite of all our collective "ills" and sinful tendencies) has been done at least once if not more in EVERY CASE I know about on that list. We're talking tens of thousands of dollars people. Now you can call that "love bombing" if you want. I call it just plain stupid when you look at it one way. All of us with serious sins against one another, God, Jesus and in some cases the law of the land, and people in Indy are putting expenses on high interest credit cards to help us.... If you want to call people there weird and vilify them, do it for that kind of stuff, because no one I know in America, Christian or not, spends their money and "personal vacation time" THAT "stupidly." Well, folks, I dare say that none of what I've written thus far will likely ever make it into that "book" that some of you are compiling. But thems the facts as I myself saw them and lived them, just BRIEFLY touching all the sin, help, care, tears, pain, money, people and events. If you all want to continue to believe everything "bad" that's been posted here, that's entirely your business. It sounds a great deal to me like that's what a lot of you are in fact going to do. But for those here really interested in the Truth, those things really happened, and they should and I trust will be factored into the equation of what's going on in the capital of Indiana and the people there. An end needs to be put to all this one-way street paving and self-serving employment of slight-of-hand rules dictating how we're all going to play here. If you want the truth, some pretty atrocious things have been done by those who used to live there on that list (some of it requiring POLICE intervention), but I doubt you'll ever hear it from them. But that's the way things go in FactNyet-land... I never did get around to describing the tremendous hurt, confusion and other things satan had the audacity to throw at me in light of all these things (all my ridiculous sins) I've listed above, how I worked through them, and WHY all this junk posted here is SO UN-CHRISTLIKE. But I'll be back later for that story for those who really care. I really can empathize with those who have posted here. The pain has been other-worldly at times, but there IS A WAY OUT, and it's NOT what Dennis, Jen, FirstTruth and UltimateTruthSeeker are suggesting with the bitter-pill medications and un-Christlike retaliatory spirits they are offering here. GottaRun for now... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 9:39 pm:

PS. One slight amendment/retraction to one thing I said. I said that there was not one single person on that list that was posted in which I did not, myself, see serious spiritual problems exhibited. That's not enitrely true. Some of the persons on that list had very fine, surrendered walks with God, but were unfortunately impacted by the sins of their spouse. I mentioned spousal issues in my list. So, not *everyone* in that list had problems since the poster mentioned married couples. But again, that's what sin does -- it affects the relationships of those around us, and the spouses weren't the only ones to pay. No one here knows about the tears people in Indy have exhibited over emotional attachments they've made to US that had to leave. I mentioned one guy I knew for 30 years that I almost never see or talk to any more (entirely my fault). No one seems concerned for HIS feelings, just the people who had to leave because they wouldn't (at the time -- hopefully more have changed) stop sinning. But I digress. I can't cover everything, esp. when it's not likely to matter. But it seems worthwhile and important to point out and make that correction about those spouses who WERE walking with God and got slammed in the door by their spouse's sins. -co [End of repost requested by DanRepent]

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 11:03 am:

"Martin Luther!!! Answer the question with a simple 'YES!' or 'NO!' (and stop wasting our time trying to help us see the Truth!!!)" Why do you guys keep asking me to answer questions that you won't (and DON'T) believe the answers to? Not that you have any "authority" as I already mentioned (and Dan as well) to demand these answers, nor am I obligated in anyway to provide them. Let me ask YOU GUYS a question... Have you and/or DanRepent and/or GottaPost and/or Jen or Denny been in any cabalish collaboration on the phone or in any other way outside of this forum??? ANSWER MY QUESTION!!! I answer your question about Dan versus Sigh (because those guys took off a long time ago), and you don't believe the answer. (Because I can bank 100% on their character.) I told you in my first posting (1) I am not Mike nor (2) has Mike ever seen one single post -- not one word, not one character -- I have ever posted here before it's posted. He's not seen it, reviewed it, "approved" it, "demanded" it, orchestrated it, etc. Want me to write that in French or some other langauge you can understand??? "Why are my words or my language not clear to you? It's because..." (John 8:42-44) You guys are so satanically bent on one thing and one thing alone, like some KKK lynch mob with your "white" but very hidden and hooded identities and very unhidden intentions. It doesn't matter what "answer" someone gives you, the only "answer" you believe is the one that matches what you've already "decided." You guys are also like Stalin or the Kimer Rouge or the Nazis or the Chinese or the North Koreans or any one of a dozen hellish, diabolical despots/rogue, satanic governments through the centuries who, when dealing with people, could care less what the actual, verifiable, Truth is. You give them an honest answer "No, I am not involved in a conspiracy!" (which in essence what you are asking me and my answer is "No".) And two-broken-legs, 5-teeth-knocked-out, and-bleeding-from-the-ear-with-a-chopstick-sticking-out-of-it later the same question comes back "Are you involved in a conspiracy??? YES or NO!!! Answer the question!!!" (with the only "answer" that we already "know" and want to hear so we can lie, twist and distort, and "prove" to other people the version of "truth" we are "building" and want them to believe!!!) "And Jesus, knowing the evil in their hearts, replied..." When Mike has written, he's used his own name including his location so there can be no doubt who is writing. I already told you, I am not him, nor does he have any sway at all over what I write. Period. You know, I would be almost certain that GottaPost knows exactly who I am, that I am not Mike, and that my writing and personal, first-hand knowledge of these things is entirely my own and accurate. Why don't you ask him?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 11:07 am:

Stop wasting time and get back to work on that site you are building. The least you could do on that page that states "An EXPLOSION of blogs and sites go up speaking out against Mike Peters and Indy" is to use a different template on those 7-8 sites so people can't readily tell you went out and generated them all on your own. Wow. You guys accuse others that they are making up several "psuedonyms" and "lying" here in this site (which they are not, but you honestly can't see the truth of all that -- "to the pure all things are pure, but to the impure..." so you honestly can't fathom the notion at all that others would actually be telling you the truth while at the same time not being pushed around by your Papal Bull-ying tactics), but it's blantantly obvious you guys are generating all these so-called "plethora" of sites on your own. The look, feel and content is all the same. The least you could do is make those "separate and independently written sites" (riiiiiggghhht....) more believable for the people you are trying to deceive...? You guys chose this particular forum, this "den of anonymity and iniquity" as your medium, so you deserve the confusion and lack of definitive answers it necessarily brings as I and Dan and Sigh ("C") and others have already pointed out. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 6:13 pm:

Well, DanRepent, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but the answers to your personal "delimma" in your family and why all this is as it is (your thinking that this is a "cult") was answered in your last two messsages to me. If you had issues in your family, then Jesus said that the way to resolve those is to talk to the persons involved about whatever wrongs you feel may have been done. Your statement that Dan could "probably figure out who you are" is pretty clear indication to me that you haven't done that -- that you haven't met with the people involved and obeyed Jesus as He asked you to do. Which means that whatever you "feel" may or may not be "right" or may or may not have been "done" or "decided" is all just that: may or may not have been. The only real way to know is to obey Jesus (I am assuming you consider yourself a Christian???) and to "go to them and them alone." Setting up a "cult web site" as a result of not obeying those simple commands is something you don't have a right to do if you call yourself a disciple. The same goes for your mother. Obedience doesn't take a huge level of discernment. Classically speaking you can't see problems "from a mile away." You might see them from that far away, but then you have a responsibility, again according to Jesus(*), to walk a mile in their direction, get face to face and discuss those issues with others who claim to be walking with Jesus. It doesn't sound like that's what you all have done, but instead "heard" (or thought you heard) and "saw" (or thought you saw) some things and drew conclusions. Which is exactly why Jesus said to do what I am telling you you need to do as well. Not much "research" needs to be done into what I am telling you here, and if your continued response (and disobedience as it sounds to me) to those simple commands is to continue with this "cult web site" then it is hellish, diabolical and misleading because you are misrepresenting things as someone that "knows" but yet has not obeyed and "gone to them and them alone" (or bringing with you two or three witnesses to these supposed wrongs so you can help the folks where you are to see what they are doing wrong.) Take those steps and the answers to some of the rest of you questions regarding "leaders being open to criticism" and "the church being the body of Christ" will be answered. -ChrisO (*) God's heart on this actually goes back as far as the Old Testament and with the children of Israel. Jesus was just reiterating something that had been on God's heart for a long, long, long time and had been for the most part disobeyed for a long, long, long time as it still is in the majority of cases today. Be big enough and obedient enough to break the cycle............

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 6:23 pm:

PS. Understand that you may have already complicated your ability to be obedient by the choices you've made up until now instead of obeying right away and talking to people at the time these things occurred. Recall how the early christians weren't quite sure they could trust Paul after all that he had done. But he didn't just walk off, call them "judgmental" and separate. He realized he made a lot of mistakes (also in response to not seeing and understanding the "body of Christ" properly, by the way) and it took some time to gain their trust to let them know he was "for real." As you will likely have to do should you undertake the courage to obey anyway. Taking the wrong and disobedient approach and making it harder to circle back around and obey isn't God's fault, and He still expects you to obey and get with "them and them alone." I've known these people for 20 years+ and you'll be surprised at how humble and open they can be when approached that way as well. Up until now, it would appear, you haven't attempted that yet. I hope you will. -co

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:05 pm:

[Posting to the New Indy Thread which GetAGrip has created] http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/23221.html?1154664649

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:09 pm:

To our readers at home: Well, I'm not trying to be ugly, but certainly what UltimateTruthTweeker and DanRepentRepent are up to these days isn't nice, so... I'm really not of the opinion that they deserve to be directly addressed any longer. DanRepentRepent mentions in his note posted to his "cult" board on the "lady" (under the "Columbus Group" link) that he's been "ignored" and all I have to say is, I really can't blame the folks in Columbus for feeling this way. If they pressured the folks there like they have me here (and then pretentiously attempt to paint this as simply a "discussion" when it is far from anything like that!!!), then I don't blame them abit. And it's clear they've been just as demanding in Columbus as they have with me here, so... These men are pompous, arrogant, prideful men who are reacting essentially to "not getting their way" (in the past as well as now). They have no authority, neither civil and certainly not any spiritual authority, for doing what they are doing. I would like to attempt here to bring out a few things that will likely help shed light on that for those of you at home that are reading along (sorrowfully, no doubt, I'm sure) here in a minute. But can you imagine these men "busting into" your church, pinning your leaders up against a wall, and pridefully and pompously demanding "answers" just as they are here (and have done in Columbus)? And then, with the answers you do happen to give, hoping to show yourselves innocent as you are, their response is to accuse you of lying, "covering up," "conspiracies" and other insinuations and accusations and just keep "digging" further and further, never believing anything you offer as contrite explanation? Again, I say to them and to everyone else reading, no church in America would put up with this. If they were to do this to Dobson, Graham, McDowell, or any church on any street in America, they would be turned out on their ears according to the attitudes and prideful, arrogant demands and twisting accusations they are using on the churches in question. Picture your own church in such a situation. These guys have put together their own "church auditing agency" here. (All this after maybe someone in your church had the guts [audacity is how they would see it] to stand up to them in the past...) And notice how they keep "harping" on and "insinuating" about the "leadership" of those churches? Those leaders saw through the charade of what these men were like (eg. they didn't become prideful, arrogant, demanding, know-it-all creatures overnight, do you think?), and so of course they are upset and bent on some "smear campaign." But leaders, by definition, are supposed to protect and help those that are in their care (both from within and from without), so what's the big deal they are making out of that? Again, in any of your churches, if your churches were attacked, would your leaders just stand by and just "let it happen" (like "watching TV" to borrow an ironically pertinent phrase)??? Do you think that in your church your leaders would just sit and let them do this without intervening and having a word or two with them? Your leaders would be wrong not to! That's what a "leader" is, right??!!

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:11 pm:

There are probably 10 churches within a 5 mile radius of where I live. If I were to jump into any of these congregations -- Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, or even crazy-off-the-wall whatever (who am I to entitle myself in the same way they do, judge as they do, and say???) etc. -- and start making accusations of that church and their leaders and telling them that their answers (if they even answered at all and didn't just call the police right away!!) were "non-answers" because I've already decided who they are and what they are like and how they function... What do you suppose the response would be? And in comparision, all that has happened thus far is that these men who are upset with things in the past were and are simply being ignored. Ignoring someone (which even Jesus did), especally when there is good reason for it, doesn't make someone a "cult," folks. I hope that's easy to see. There are any number of inconsistencies, falsehoods, accusations, twisting of scriptures and other things I could point out here of things even mentioned recently. Let me hit on a few more and see if this helps anyone at home (since I'm pretty sure it will mean nothing to the guys posting here on a regular basis since their minds are obviously made up as has been pointed out on several occasions). Then I'll slide on outta here for a while again. I can only bear to be in here about once a week now anyway. Since this is quite a "dirty den."

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:18 pm:

"EXILED FOREVER" Oh boy, here we go again... DanRepentRepent states as "fact" (again) that I have been "exiled forever"... Not sure where he's geting that (well, actually I do know, it's just not from anything he's found that bears that out as "fact"). It sounds distinctly like indignant opinion again, stated as fact when there is no proof of that to be found. No one's ever said that to me, I have no written documentation of that, and neither does DanRepentRepent. He's only stating his indignant opinion as "fact." First of all, when I was asked to leave the first time, I was asked later if I would like to come back since people then were under the impression that I had made some progress in a particular (and very dangerous, I might add) area in my life that lead to many re-occuring sins. So if I was asked back, how can that be "exiled forever?" Can anyone see how this is just DanRepentRepent's opinion??? And I would never rule out being asked to come back again at some point, and "coming back" would never be a part of the discussion anyway since the vision there and here with me is an Acts 17 vision -- it's God who determines the times and places for men to live. Not men. At one point in time, I was lead to live there (twice actually), and presently I am not. It's really that simple. And at some point, I might be again...? This is a "concept" that DanRepentRepent and others here perhaps have a difficult time wrapping themselves around that men can be sensitive enough to what God wants in something as important "where I live" and can actually hear and respond to God's heart on it. So where's the "permanantly exiled" thing DanRepentRepent is touting as "fact?" And the same would be true for the "lady" under the "Columbus Group" link on DRR's evil "cult" web site. I don't have to know the details of her situation to know that for a fact because countless people have been in, been out, and been back to both Columbus and Indianapolis multiple times. In fact, I can think of several on that "list" that was posted a while back that did the same and even some that are on the "list" (supposedly to show how "Indy has destroyed these people") that are living there now. So much for "destroyed lives", "who's 'in' and who's 'out' in Indy", "permanent exhile" and several other accusations thrown around in here time and time again. The real, proveable, actual facts regarding these people used to "prove how bad things are" aren't even close. So, sorry DanRepentRepent... No "permanent exhile" exists as much as you would like it to so things could be "painted" so "hard" and "legalistic" in those places. It's only just your indignant opinion again, twisting and stating things as "fact."

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:22 pm:

Also for more light on why I'm not living in "Indy" at the moment was also directed to Jen earlier in this thread. You can read my quoting of her very similar questions and my responses to those here: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=302425#POST302425 Can you guy's out there understand that if DanRepentRepent is stating this "permanent exhile" thing as "fact" when it's not, that there could be (and are, I assure you) many other things he thinks he "knows" and "has seen" that he is judging and handling and drawing similar conclusions on in the same way? When you have a "hidden agenda" everything looks like a "conspiracy"... Oh, that's supposed to be "When you have a hammer..." Oh, never mind... (Here's a little story on how indignancy with something you don't believe is true and more importantly don't like being true [like "what you believe" can change the "facts" of anything, you know...?] can cause someone like DanRepentRepent and others to start saying things that not only aren't true, but to start "twisting" facts and throwing basely accusations based solely on OPINION because there's a "hidden agenda" involved... I was watching a special on the History Channel this week on the book of Revelation, and a well known and popular "pastor" actually very pointedly and strongly stated as "fact" that John the Apostle was "a very hard, introverted, mad and angry man"...!!! Wow. Now where in the WORLD did he ever get that idea??? The "Love Apostle" being "angry at the world???" And here he is in an interview on the HC trying to state that as fact and of course using his so-called "credentials" and divinity "degree" whatever those are anyway] as leverage to shove that "fact" down every listener's throat. A very "polished" man, by the way... You wanna know why this "pastor" was saying that??? Because the "hidden agenda" behind the statement of "fact" concerning John's "disposition" has that this "pastor" doesn't believe in hell. And since John wrote rather prolifically about hell in Revelation, of course in an attempt to "discredit" John, he makes up this garbage about how John is "hard, introverted, and just angry at the world." Of course the implication there is that we really shouldn't be taking the book of Revelation very seriously as a result becase John was just a "crackpot." No archeological evidence or scriptural proof for this "opinion" [stated as fact] has ever been unearthed in the history of the world and yet he states this as "fact"... It certainly does remind be of many things here, including "permanent exhile" which ironically since we are talking about John, he was, but I am not and neither is anyone else I know about...)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:25 pm:

"LADY" IN "COLUMBUS LETTER" ON evil "CULT" WEB SITE Okay, so DanRepentRepent states in his "letter" about the "lady" in Columbus (on his evil "cult" web site) that she's "doing much better now." The implication being that the Columbus group was "subverting" her in some way and of course implying "they are a cult." Well you know... how does that prove any of that? See, it's "how" it's being presented that is so evil because it doesn't prove anything other than that is just their indiginant opinion again. She could be "feeling better" for a variety of spiritual reasons according to God, none of which prove anything so conclusive about the people in Columbus (or Indy). I have a close relative that once was a christian. She taught Sunday School, studied, knew the scriptures very well, wrote songs to God (beautiful songs), etc. For a decade after her conversion she exhuded great christian qualities. She had a dramtic influence on my life (and others) in turning to God such was her life. But later, she divorced and life started falling apart. To make a 30 year story short here, her life now is the greatly degenerated anti-thesis of what it once was: cursing comes from her mouth, she's self-centered, impressed and in love with the world, cold to God (doesn't even know if He exists now according to her own words), impatient, admittedly "not a christian" (denies Christ), etc. But she says she "has never felt better!!!" Because she's no longer under the conviction of the Holy Spirit and no longer feels "pressured" by anything. (Maybe we should ask DanRepentRepent to list her very mainline, easily recognized fundamental denomination as a "cult" too since she felt such "pressure" when she was with them and now "feels better" since she's left???) She says she would never go back to "being a christian" because she's out from under "pressure" now. She's left behind a life of conviction and a heart and mind God gave her once to sense and feel things. Now, her "conscience is seared as with a hot iron." So just because she says she's "doing better now than [she's] ever done in her whole life" (her exact words to me on many occasions) means nothing. Because sin necessarily has a "feel good," deception component to it. The Bible is clear about this and the "feeling better" sensation of feeling no sensations any longer when one's conscience is seared. So for the "lady" in the "letter' about Columbus, it means nothing with the one and two dimension information (and opinion) we are given on their evil "cult" web site. To accurately judge from words whether her "doing better" has anything at all to do with the Columbus group, we'd (general "we" -- everyone-reading-here "we") have to know HOW she feels better as opposed to WHAT and compare her sensation of "feeling better" to scriptures. Saying she "feels better" means nothing and it certainly doesn't prove anything conclusively about Columbus nor Indy. Can everyone see that?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:27 pm:

And on the flip side (since I know it will be flipped this way, so I may as well go ahead and address that as well)... No one in Columbus or Indy feels that they are the "be all and end all" of anyone's lives. In many cases I know about (as well as my own situation), people there have willingly suggested to many others that maybe another church situation would suit them better? They are not at all opposed to that (and in fact in most situations encourage it -- 99.9999% of all people who write and want to "move to Indy" are asked to stay put, please, and just love God where you are!; some "cult" that is!!!), and if this lady is in fact "doing better" from God's perspective (and not just the "way she feels" because she's out from under the light and conviction now), no one would rejoice more than those in Columbus. The entire tenor of the AllAtHisFeet web site is: "This isn't about us, it's about Jesus. If we can help you in your walk with Him, great. If we can't, we simply hope that you will be all for Him that you can possibly be." Period. End of story. That's what they tell everyone who lives there now and literally hundreds of other people a day. The same is true at the micro level in people's lives. And if people "feel better" after they leave, then it proves nothing other than... they "feel better." Again WHY as opposed to WHAT would have to be proven along with testimony from both sides in the case of this "lady" as well as anyone else that would say that. But that picture isn't being painted on the evil "cult" web site of DanRepentRepent and UltimateTruthTweeker. Instead the "insinuation" is that "because this lady feels better now they must be a cult." (Isn't that so much how satan works everyone? Innuendo. Accusation. Partial "facts." Left out details. Presentation. Missing information which adds a necessary 3rd dimension before making a right judgement [as Jesus asked His followers to do]? Right?) Can we all just "feel better" about all this now with a better view as to why this lady might actually be "feeling better" herself? Neither of which proves what DanRepentRepent and UltimateTruthTweeker are "trying" to "prove?"

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:31 pm:

"BRAD C." (RECENTLY MENTIONED) AND OTHERS ON THAT "LIST" THAT WAS POSTED Another aside, but one that I think highlights (as with the "permanently exiled" false conclusions) how "facts" here aren't even right... I received an email this week from someone that knows "Brad C." (named recently on this board as another person experiencing "pressure" from "Indy") and he expressed total shock that someone would have that impression. He says he doesn't feel that way now and has never felt that way. And doesn't recall ever telling anyone this. Ever. So again, so much for the "facts" on this forum and on that "cult" board. I also know that a good number of those names listed earlier in this thread have good relationships with folks in Indy and have no issues with them. (Some even live there now as I mentioned earlier, and yet are painted as if something terrible is wrong and as if they don't live there now. Wow.) Again, so much for the "facts" and for "permanent exhile," persons "under pressure," and "marriages and lives torn asunder." I have indeed neglected to mention that my marriage was most definitely saved by the people in Indianapolis. A fact I, my wife, and children are eternally thankful for. I would actually wager that many more marriages have been saved that would have died if it were not for their loving and courageous insight and intervention. Again, that matches names on that list where the partners destroyed their marriages through very, very sinful, selfish choices (not Indy), and Indy has either saved or helped reconcile the two. (And again, isn't "intervention" what we [general "we" again] are supposed to be about as believers? To do something about lives around us when we see something that isn't like God? But when we do "intervene" as God commands, now we're "a cult"???)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:33 pm:

FINALLY... Here's the deal: Anyone truly interested in the Truth, if they find this little ol' corner of the internet and their little ol' "cult board" are going to be asking questions of both sides, and I have no doubt that anyone with half an ounce of discernment and love for the Truth is going to see the ploys here as baseless (at the very least, and likely plainly satanic as it in fact is.) And anyone who wants an excuse for their disobedience will gladly and readily adopt DanRepentRepent and UltimateTruthTweeker's views. Which is as good as any other thing they might adopt to stop up their ears to the Truths of Jesus and His Kingdom, so in the end, it matters not. I've been in countless situations myself where I've "heard" things and had the decency and the heart to humbly seek the truth in those situations by checking into both sides (and weighing the most important things which weren't the "words" surrounding the situations anyway). And I know many others who love Truth who would and will do the same. I recently was told by an elder in a church here that some "big shot" came up North here a few years ago and "split the church." Well guess what? Maybe he did and maybe he didn't? Maybe this elder just didn't like what the guy had to say and there was a bunch of junk going on that was pointed out and people decided to stop putting up with it and left? (And so in an effort to deflect the light from his impotent leadership and unwillingness to be a lover of Truth and let "junk" happen under his watch, he "accuses" the "other guy" of something "awful." 'Cause it couldn't have been HIM that was wrong... Sound familiar?) Or maybe, just maybe the guy did "split the church?" Who knows? People that love God know that His enemies are multipled, can't see (or use) their spiritual noses to spite their faces (even though they "think" they "know" like these guys DRR and UTT do), and that they better do some checking around before believing everything that is "said" -- on both sides. I told you I did that with a "cult" group in the Northeast and I still do it whenever I "hear" something that that I'm not personally attached to (like this elder guy -- there are ways of asking and checking that aren't DEMANDING and full of POMPOUS, PRESUMPTUOUS PRIDE and ARROGANCE and ENTITLEMENT). So... Anyone with an ounce of real love for the Truth will do the same. AllAtHisFeet@cs.com (for questions to the folks in Indy regarding any of the junk accusations here) WirklichMir144@yahoo.com (for questions to me that are about me or other humbly asked questions I may be able to answer)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 7:34 pm:

Well, I should probably break outta here and get back to real life. I know no one here is going to be pleased with this posting, calling it a "fillabuster" again or some other term, hoping to "state" things here in order to condition people at home on "how to view" things. (Hopefully you aren't "into" letting people manipulate you like that.) But as I already said, I have no fear at all that those with eyes to see, will see some of what I've said here, and for those that don't, they have one more excuse of the many others already out there to choke out the word of God regarding Jesus and His Kingdom. I might be back and I might not... Never know... It's become a bit of a "soap opera" in here, and God doesn't like or author "soap operas." Unfortunately I've allowed myself to get drug into that at times, and I need to pull back and watch out for that. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:36 am:

To our readers at home: I just popped into the "cult" web site real quick tonight that some here have seen fit to put up on the internet and has been under "discussion" here. It's really so sad to see. Here are a couple of things to consider which I hope will be helpful regarding "how" that site is being put together that I hope speaks to the "validity" (eg. invalidity) of the site and how much one should really "believe" when reading it. Anyone can put up an internet site with their "indignant opinion": (1) Note the new "testimonial" page. Testimonials by default have to be ascribable to someone with a real name in order for them to be considered valid "testimonies." Without that, it's not a "testimonial." (Unless we're selling bleach here or something...) Who's to say that it wasn't just concocted? Anyone can write anything as a "testimonial." Where's the name? Consider also God's heart (command?) that anyone that bears testimony against someone else, do it face to face? If you are so convinced there is wrong, GOD requires that it be done COMPLETELY IN THE LIGHT!!! (Consider also the "rebuking of an older man" in Titus... How much more an entire CHURCH???) Does everyone see how this entire web site is throwing stones at the church in Indianapolis completely in the dark and from behind purposefully concealed identities? This is exactly satan's modus operandi -- how he "works" -- not God's!!! This so-called "cult web site" can't be taken seriously if it's just essentially a "hearsay" and "slander" site with some "we're bringing you 'real' information" assurances and "sprinklings" here and there. But no names and nothing that can be verified as God demands. (2) As I've indicated before, I do personally have some direct past experience with "cults"(*). In every case that I know about that a "cult site" or other help organization has been put together regarding any cult, the only ones with a good reputation and worth reading at all were all put together by people who:

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:41 am:

(a) Spent many years "inside" the cult, and spent a good part of their lives, sweating blood, trying to make necessary changes. They are then able to testify in a reputable and fully ascribable way (eg. real, knowable, contactable people, working fully in the LIGHT instead of "with bags over their heads"). That way, any issues of any real wrong-doing have a clear view, and generally from someone long associated with the thing under consideration (generally as a leader, and not a disgruntled member) so that there is no "slant" to their stories or other "hidden agenda." It's easy to discern there are real problems in those situations because it's not coming from someone "disgruntled" where the agenda can be very questionable and the recounting twisted at best. It's a real insider's view that way. (Generally, not always, but generally only leaders can give real insight into real problems since the word "leader" necessarily implies a working with certain elements that not everyone is privy to and for good reason -- they are leaders. That's true whether in a church setting, a corporate setting, or your neighborhood Bingo party organization committee. A good leader will necessarily have some people -- both "inside" and "outside" [I hate those terms, but oh well for now] -- who don't "like" them. That's part of being a leader [as well as a real Christian, by the way, according to Jesus...] Any reputable "self-help" book or author will tell you that. A bad leader will have an ever-increasing swelling of real, verifiable, known people who don't "like" them and among those will be numerous respectable, mature, reptuable people, often leaders themselves... THAT'S how you start smelling a real "rat" is when known, respectable, peer leaders have "problems." If there is a real problem, that will inevitably happen. And in 20 years that has never happened in this church. A leader has never left that church. That's always happened in every other certifiable "cult" situation that I know about -- leaders leaving. That's when you know almost for certain something's not "right.")

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:46 am:

(b) Reputable web sites done on real "cults"(*) are also done by mature, well-respected, fully known, well-meaning, christian adults in a respectful, mature, helpful, Christ-like way. Sarcasm, jesting, mocking and slander is never used on well-known, ascribable, reputable cult web sites. No one coming out of an actual cult who works according to the heart of Jesus would ever mock the cult with evil and hurtful plays on words (like "AllAtHisFeet" turned into "AllAtMikesFeet.") EVER. A sarcastic, jesting, mocking, ´Hah! We're nailing then GOOD!!!", elitist "overtone" would and is never to be found on anyone's web site that is worth reading and bears any reputation or repsect. Why? Because people who really love Jesus don't make fun of other people or real situations like that, especially people that they have labored with over a long period of time and still love (not "claim" to love). They really care from the heart and in most cases are shedding real tears. Real tears and care and accustations, mocking, slander, and undocumented, unverifiable "hearsay" and twisted opinions don't go together. The way people conduct themselves -- like Jesus -- says so much. Not how much they say "we are doing this because we care" -- like they are trying to "convince" you of that. Real care is identifiable by HOW people say what they say (eg. completely in the light, as GOD says and without sarcasm or mocking), not "what" they say. And especially if they've poured out a lot of their own time in the midst, attempting to help the people there do they have any real insight worth reading and sharing and which can be considered seriously at all.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:53 am:

Doesn't all that just make sense? This so-called "cult web site" contradicts all of these things in manner, approach, expression, presentation, spirit and so many other ways. It's doubtful you will ever know who's behind it, or the "real people" behind these so-called "letters" and "testimonials" because there is very much a hidden agenda (and real, verifiable hidden sin, I might add) involved. So again, consider: (1) This site is being run completely in the dark, throwing stones, and operating in a way that is way, way, way less than Jesus would operate. Testimonies on good, reputable, worth-reading web sites are fully ascribable (so anyone can check out and verify the story as well as the spirit and motives behind the person or persons offering the "testimony.") (2) Sarcasm, jesting, mocking and other slander are what you read instead of documentable and definite SINS instead of "stories" and OPINIONS which are "twisted" to make things "sound" a certain way. So those are just a couple of things to consider, and I hope everyone will. Again, ask questions and follow up before drawing conclusions based on "hearsay" and "agenda." Through the years I've always been glad and blessed to have operated that way as any earnest and well-meaning believer would have to be. Especially those "not unaware of satan's devices" or mode of operation. At this point, it certainly doesn't appear likely you will be able to do that for this so-called "cult web site" without at least contacting the "gatekeeper" of it. Isn't THAT ironic? They accuse Indy of "gatekeeping" yet this is the only option people here are left with if they have enough integrity to ask questions about this is to contact the "gatekeeper" of this "cult web site." Again, I don't live in Indy so this isn't "their defense" -- just someone that knows them very, very well (some of them as far back as 30 years) and this "cult web site" so far is really pretty sad (and extremely evil -- I hope you all can see that by the way it's run that is so "not Jesus.") All of this was posted without looking at a single posting since I last posted. I'll be back later next week maybe to see what other shinanagans folks here have been "up to." ChrisO WirklichMir144@yahoo.com To contact the folks in Indy (I do not live there nor am I their "spokesman" per se -- just someone that knows certifiably these accusations are simply just that -- accusations and opinions and nothing more. The life in the church there is really simply fantastic. Not without "problems" or "perfect" as I've already pointed out many times, but certainly fantastic in they way they deal with problems and with the overall, daily quality of life. In sharp, sharp contrast I might add to their accusers...): AllAtHisFeet@cs.com

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 2:56 am:

* - I quote "cults" because again, I think it's clear that all "groups" contain (a) real people, regardless, and (b) because of that no apostle, prophet, evangelist or other Christian in the first century and immediately beyond that time ever lifted a pen to write about "cults" in their day since this approach isn't on God's heart. Tearing people down or even "warning" about them was never an agenda God or God's people in the early church EVER pursued that I have any knowledge of despite the presence of at least a dozen very serious cults in their day. So even in the presence of real cults -- which this church in Indianapolis is NOT, I can attest from having lived there for 4 years out of 20 in it's existence and with past experience in cults under my belt -- God never considered it important, and in fact I maintain that the absence of such writings indicates that God purposefully ignored such things and for several, several very good reasons (which I can detail if someone cares to understand why; the short of it is that it ends up doing more harm than good to "react" and "function" this way.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 7:49 pm:

GottaPost: OK, I'll respond to the "testimonial" Tim left... Why don't we have Cathy, Tim's wife post, so we can get the other side of the story, and then let everyone decide? For example, the reality is that Tim never bought a house in Indianapolis but rather a number of the Saints there spent over $30,000 on Tim and his family, and bought that house, and then paid off the second mortgage with all of Tim's credit card debt on it, too. And even recently Tim wants to divorce Cathy against her will, and has found someone to concoct a doctrine that "for any cause" (such as not agreeing with his doctrines) Tim can divorce Cathy and abandon all those children. Does anyone on this board agree that "God hates divorce" and someone who wants divorce and a doctrine to allow it because his wife doesn't agree with his character or doctrines -- there's something seriously shady about that? These facts seem to fly directly in the face of the accusations here no less since it's not Indy (I've said this over and over and over again) that's doing this nor precipitated this. So, maybe before passing judgment on others based on spurious and questionable testimony by those with motives that are not clear, maybe if we're honest we'll want to hear more -- from the wives themselves -- on how they are treated at home and the personal lives and practices and character and treatment they get in their homes. What if there is more to this than what we're being told here? (Something I keep asking but no one seems to think is "valid.") Wouldn't you feel badly for accusing or listening to accusations, if the husbands are abusive and controlling and of questionable character in their homes, with secret lives? I also understand, in addition there are letters available from Tim's sibling that is very revealing also. Why don't we get all the information on here so everyone can decide fairly, if they really want to know? That just makes sense, right? Now, I don't know if Cathy would want to do something like that (I've known Cathy and Tim as well for about 16 of those 18 years -- seen his oldest children immediately after birth while living in another state at the time) since contrary to popular opinion (accusations) running rampant on this board, no one I know encourages that sort of thing. I don't even how to get ahold of her, but if anyone wanted to hear the whole story in order to ascertain what is truth and what is sour grapes for being disfellowshipped after the "one more year" had long expired, probably those who lived around him for 18 years, as well as his wife and children could probably lend some light to the topic. If anyone really wanted to know. What do you think? Again, I don't know if she even would if she could be contacted somehow, since she would probably not want to expose her husband to public scrutiny no matter what he's done, but if he is on here telling stories that seem shy of the truth by a lot, perhaps she will want to tell the other side? So, as GottaPost correctly states, it seems like this kind of thing is "all too common." I've detailed the reasons why before, and here we go again, I'm very, very sad to say. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:01 pm:

Excerpts from “The Singer”: As they went into the grain room, the Singer looked upon the great machine which turned the giant stones which milled the grist. The Singer was about to ask him where he found the mason to quarry such impressive stones, when suddenly he discovered that one of the Miller’s hands was badly scarred and crippled. “Can you run so great a stone with but a single hand?” The Singer asked. “I manage… though it always was much easier with two.” “Did you lose your hand in this machinery?” “I was in much too great a hurry three harvest-times ago. I was trying to sweep the grist away when i dropped my broom upon the floor stone. When i reached to pick it up, the great stone caught my arm and hand. And when they rolled the grinder back, this was all that I had left,” he said. “I will,” observed the Singer, “make it useful again if you will just desire it whole and believe it can be.” “It cannot be so easy, Singer. Would you wave your magic wand above such suffering and have it all be done with? I sometimes wake at midnight with a searing flame of fire and throbbing agony alive through all this twisted, dying limb. You have both hands and cannot understand this sort of pain.” “I have no pain like yours, but I have a healing melody. Earth-maker gave the song to me for healing hands like yours. Already it has helped a little girl to be made whole.” “Was her hand as badly mangled as my own?” “It was her legs – but yes, they were…” “How often I have wished that I might trade a useless hand for such a leg,” the Miller interrupted. “Why either – why not simply be made whole?” “Oh that such a healing now were possible – the speed I might regain in working at the mill. But no, it cannot be. Can you not understand? Have you no sympathy for suffering? Are you so empty of conscience as to suggest a hopeless remedy. You only add to misery by forcing me to see myself a cripple. I soon shall have to close the mill or sell it. I cannot make the necessary quota since the accident occurred.” “There is power within the Melody I know to make you well. Please, Miller, trust and let me sing and you will run the mill alone with two good hands.” “Stop your mocking. I am a sick old man whom life has cheated of a hand." He waited for the Singer to join him in his pity, but when he raised his head for understanding, the door stood open on the night and the Singer was nowhere to be seen.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, August 12, 2006 - 7:04 pm:

Later, when the Singer has been arrested and is being “tried”... [Speaking of the Singer] ... “What shall we do, O Grand Musician, with the Liar who hates the Shrine of Older Life?” cried the Hater still in masquerade. “We shall smash his lyre and…” Before he could name the sentence, a small bent man made his way to the steps of the Shrine. It was the Miller with the injured hand. “May I speak before you pass the sentence?” the Miller asked the Grand Musician. “You may,” he answered back. “I am a miller. My home is by the grainfields of the east. Three years ago my hand was crushed in an accident at my own mill. This liar who calls himself the only Troubadour mocked my crushed deformity and left me screaming in the night.” “Had you no pity, Singer, for this man?” the Grand Musician asked. “He had pity enough for himself. I could have made him whole,” the Singer said. “How can you call yourself Earth-maker’s Son and have no pity? Earth-maker is merciful and filled with love.” He paced the marble stones before the crowd. At length he spoke, “Because you had no pity your hand shall be like his.” “Bring out the block and mallet.” The guards obeyed. They placed the Singer’s hand upon the block and brought the crushing mallet down. The Singer winced. The Miller walked up to the Singer who gently held his injured hand. “Would you like pity from me, Singer?” he said through his teeth. “Here, Singer, is the only kind of pity that you know.” He spit into the Singer’s face and laughed…… --calvin miller

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:33 pm:

TimD (DanRepentRepent): I have no intention to be snide, hard, or mystical toward you in what I am about to say; I really don't. But Tim D, honestly if you don't "get it" (regarding the The Singer posting) than I'm not sure I can explain it to you. The fact that you don't "get it" exactly parallels a lot of other things here you "don't get." I know how that "sounds" to say, but I don't know what else to tell you??? Maybe you'll understand this next story then since it's not an allegory, but a true story that was in the news last week some time... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:38 pm:

For readers at home: I know a lot of people here don't like to hear the "stories" that I post. But I think they paint a picture that is worth painting from time to time. This news story may be one of the more important ones posted, so I hope you will read on: I read this news article on www.msnbc.com the other day. I don't have the link handy and it's really not that important anyway. The story is 100% true apparently. The article discussed a man (we'll call him Frank here) who is locked away serving a life sentence for murder. Frank had to face the sister of the man he murdered 20 years previous through a new system of justice in another state where facing the family of victims is supposed to help bring closure to crimes. It seems that 20 years previous, Frank had a friend named Kevin (we'll call him Kevin here -- the article used a different name) in high school. Frank and Kevin longed for opportunities to be violent or, as Frank now recounts, find an outlet for their anger and desire to feel powerful and above everyone else. Kevin was constantly inciting Frank at school, telling him what an awful father he had at home. Kevin told Frank his father was hard on him all the time and even excessively cruel and abusive. One day, after a long period of time inciting one another and building one another's anger up towards Kevin's father (whose name was Joey), Kevin and Frank lay in wait for Joey as Joey came home from work one day... Previous to Joey walking into the house, Kevin and Frank and riled one another up for hours previous, put on Army fatigues to further inflate their feelings of power, and then found Joey's guns in the house. And then sat waiting for Joey to come home. When Joey walked in the door. Kevin -- Joey's own foster son -- shot Joey in the shoulder. Then Frank ran up, pointed the gun at Joey's head, and pulled the trigger. The funeral was closed casket. What Frank found out 20 years later when facing Joey's sister in prison was that Joey was extremely well liked by everyone who knew him. He was never ever abusive to Kevin and in fact Joey and his wife had opened their home to twelve other foster children of which Kevin was one, loving every one of them. The article doesn't say why Kevin had such wickedness in his heart towards a man who was working day and night, pouring out his love and heart and life and money on as well as a house full of a dozen other children. But somehow, somewhere along the line, Kevin didn't see his own foster father that way despite what had to be a ton of incredibly overwhelming evidence around him. Instead, he incited his friend against the man who was laying his life down for him and laying his life down for twelve others as well as his own adult siblings so it seems. Joey's death was a gigantic family and community tragedy, one that many people have never gotten over apparently. (Joey's sister in the article is still an absolute wreck because of it.) It turns out that Joey was the anti-thesis of everything Kevin had made him out to be.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 8:41 pm:

But Frank didn't know that. He only heard what Kevin told him. He had never ever met Joey. Never spoke with him. Didn't know what he was like at all. He listened to someone else's anger, desire for power, lust for violence, and packs of lies and allowed those things to drive him to the point of putting a bullet through his head. The tragedy of that act and how it damaged untold lives including his own was and is beyond description. And Frank, when he found out after the fact what Joey was really like was speechless. Dumbfounded. Paralyzed with regret. It never ever occurred to Frank that Kevin could be painting a very distorted view of Joey. Stupid little lies that Kevin believed (for again, God only knows what reason when the evidence had to be overwhelmingly in contradiction to how he allowed himself to feel and judge Joey's life) and told Frank and Frank believed them and look what happened. Not only did an innocent man die, but a loving, kind, sacrificial, hugely benevolent man that was father to a dozen others and a husband and brother and son and friend to many was now gone forever. Over stupid little lies and two people who wanted to feel power for one afternoon. ----- I've recently been traveling a bit lately and listened to several teachings from Indianapolis that are downloadable from http://www.AllAtHisFeet.com/downloads. I submit to everyone here -- even if I had never ever set foot in the city of Indianapols in my entire life -- that there is no way that these guys can be what they are being made out to be here. You can't just "make up" the stuff that you hear on these tapes and recordings. I and others know a concoction when we hear one. I'm asking you all reading at home, before you go getting "excited" and decide to murder someone (that's what gossip, slander and accustion does and why it's listed in that same breath as murder in the scriptures) that you don't know -- listening to the evil, murderous lies of DanRepentRepent, UltimateTruthSeeker and other "Kevin's" here (people who were in the loving household and despite overwhelming evidence around them, for God only knows why [well actually people do know why], have decided to pull out guns)... I hope you'll take the time to get to know the people under scrutiny here by listening to what they have to say. The audio is best because you can hear the third dimension of their voices. This isn't some concocted "we're better than everyone else" church. It's impossible, if you really listen, care, and don't have a "hidden agenda" to entitle yourself to sit in judgement on things, to think these guys are pretending at all. There is real love, care, concern, discretion, wisdom, and depth to the people there that is unmistakable. I would never have had to have been there to know that just by listening to the audio files there...!!! Don't listen to people who, for God only knows why (and again, we do know why in most of the cases here), have this disposition of hatred, pride, and arrogant entitlement and judgement in their hearts. Situations which have happened have happened for good reasons and sometimes after 20 years (as has already been pointed out in one case) of endless pouring out of love, help, money, tears, concern, etc. in many people's direction. Not to mention the details aren't anything like what they portrayed here as I've demonstrated time and time again. Check things out before you "pull the trigger." I'll bet after 20 years, Frank is now wishing he had done the same thing and not listened to his "buddy," Kevin. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, August 14, 2006 - 10:09 pm:

UltimateTruthSeeker: We still haven't heard from the wives involved. Now I'm not saying we should actually drag them into this filth just to "prove a point." I, and if I can speak that directly for people in Indiana and Ohio, care more about them (and their families, including the husbands still, believe it or not) than to go to that kind of length. But let's not forget that: (1) It's the husbands that are being accused of wrong-doing, (2) asked to leave and go their own way as a result, and (3) they (the husbands) are the only ones we've heard from so far "recounting" how they are "in the clear." Now that seems a little peculiar to me, I don't know about anyone else. There are also some near-adult children in some of those situations that might shed some light on things as well. So... Those are some things to think about. Seems like we are missing some very big "other sides of the stories" here. Wouldn't surprise me a bit to find out that "Indy" has been out of the picture for a good length of time in these cases and the wives very much feel based on the last 3 months or so that there are big problems in their households -- which have nothing at all to do with "Mike's control." Again, from the perspective of how a pagan court of justice would go about it as opposed to the "kangaroo court" proceedings in here. So far, I've only heard from those who witnesses say have some serious spiritual issues going......... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:46 am:

Been away a while. Here's a few answers to a few postings: Jen says: Did you not read the testimonies of Danielle and Elizabeth? And I gave testimony about Denny repeatedly through this board. Some women HAVE spoken. Jen: The point wasn't that other women haven't spoken. The point is that some men who have recently appeared and one (Tim Szazynski) with "18 years of history there" (which sounds so sensational) are posting here painting "Indy" in a very ignomanious light (stupified by their own current situations which their pride will not allow them to let go of), and I'm saying, let's hear from their wives. I know for a fact that their testimonies would paint their situations in tremendously different light. And again Jen, if the thing under consideration here is Indy and Mike in particular, then nothing you personally say really matters with regard to "Indy." Testifying "about Denny" isn't meaningful here. We all know what Denny thinks, but your "testimony" proves nothing about the immediate subjects at hand. Only that you are devoted to Denny for which you continue to be commended (no sarcasm at all in my tone there -- I mean it.) Which brings me to Tim...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:49 am:

Tim states (paraphrased): Go ahead and talk with Cathy. Tim: You are bluffing. I don't believe that for one minute. It "sounds good" here, but I know Cathy and I know good and well Cathy feels entirely differently about your life than what you are portraying here. And this is not from any "outside influence" but simply from your life which for some reason you are choosing to not see very clearly right now. People here seem so concerned with "marriages torn asunder" and YOU and ONLY YOU are making that choice, which your lack of love has lead you to. The people in Indy were wise to see this as sin and where it leads. DanRepentRepent... Your incredible "bible study" on "marriage." Where is your wisdom on Tim here? He is choosing to divorce his wife against her will. "Husbands LOVE your wives just as (or in the same way or manner) as Christ loves the church." A direct command. Tim hasn't and doesn't. A "freezer full of food" doesn't "cut it." Just where is Indy "missing the boat" on this one?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:53 am:

GetAGrip states: There is a lot I don't get. If I don't get your "Singer" reference, I'm some sort of lost Christian? GetAGrip: I appreciate your obvious attempts to stay objective. But really...?! Did I say you were a "lost Christian" if you didn't "get" the "Singer" parable? I didn't even say DanRepentRepent was "lost." Where did I say that? You know, there have been a ton of things I didn't "get" as a Christian and when someone told me I "[didn't] get it," I never once thought they were telling me or even implying something that drastic. See, that kind of "reaction," overstatement, and implication is EXACTLY what this forum is all about. So many things taken completely out of context, blown up, reacted to, and stated in such a way that makes people sound like monsters. I never said anyone "wasn't a Christian" if they didn't "get it." It doesn't change the fact that people here don't "get it." Telling someone that, as I have been told, is intended to make someone stop and maybe think for a moment instead of going off so cotton-picking sure of themselves thinking that that do "get it." I'm grateful for the people that have had the guts to tell me "you don't get it, Chris!!" so I wouldn't go off so cotton-picking sure of myself thinking that I did. I never said you weren't a Christian, GetAGrip, but there is a story in there for you and everyone here if you are willing to find it. I don't get your name either. "Wirklichmir" is really "Wirklich mir" and it just means "really me" in German. When I went to sign on to this board, it being sort of "foreign territory" -- I don't do too many non-technical things that require psuedonyms -- that's just what I come up with at the moment. It has no other signifigance other than I wanted to indicate it was "really me" -- a real person, with real experience in the issue at hand, speaking solely on my own. The fact that you view Mike Peters as a sympathetic, Christ-figure is your business. WOW...! Now THAT has got to be the best single sentence written on this board yet, and written so matter-of-factly. If everyone else on this board took the same Godly attitude, then none of this would exist. People here feel like they can just walk in from the outside and just put an entire church "on trial" here. The sense of entitlement and presumption here is incredible. Again, would to God everyone would espouse your attitude here.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:55 am:

Seriously, I am not trying to be rude but why the long-winded posts? Also, why do you keep saying you aren't posting anymore and then post again? Do you have difficulty controlling your actions/emotions or just simply keeping your word? Again, your attempt at being objective is obvious, but this doesn't strike me as very objective. Maybe later I'll tally up the actual word count here, but I've already run the number of posts here and SpeakingTruth alone outnumbers my posts 3:1. SpeakingTruth alone has 3x as many posts (mainly with "scripture fluff" that "proves" this and that) that span 8-9 postings than what I have. DanRepentRepent just put up a huge "point for point" post. I mean, why is everyone so worked up about the "length" of my posts when in compare they aren't any longer than anyone else here has made. See what I mean by the "one way" logic here? Are you going to let slip your objectivity here? Another "angle" in this is when little is said, then people are "hiding things," being "evasive" and "secretive" and "ignoring people." When an attempt is made to give some detail and explain then we're "fillerbustering." I mean you can't win in here with the people who are so "drunk" on "hanging this church" and I've already pointed that out several times. If you are "for" them, then everything you do will be "questioned", painted and twisted, yet for those wearing the powdered wigs in here, they can do the exact same things and... not a word is said. Jen stated a long while back that she wasn't posting again, and she has very much since then. Me? I'm not worried about it -- she obviously changed her mind which she has every right to do. But when someone associated with the church "under trial" here does the same things, they get painted for it. See what I mean, GetAGrip? I can write a script to pull this forum down and run an actual word count in here. I promise you I'll be at least 3:1 if not 4:1 to SpeakingTruth alone and perhaps to others in here as well. BTW, I've stopped saying "I'm leaving." Back to Tim...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 12:58 am:

Tim states: Chris Olive, you know full well that the woman who are still loyal to Indy cannot connect to the internet directly. If you can get Dave or Chris to approve FACTNet than Cathy and my daughters can freely write as they wish. Tim: First of all... you're bluffing again and you know it. It "sounds good" but you know no pointless, spiritual "cross-fire" like this (that violates 2Tim 2:2, Ephesians 5, and tons of other scriptures) will ever be allowed on the proxy (more on that in a minute for our readers at home -- again a clear "twist" by Tim as well as DanRepentRepent in another post.) So already knowing that, you "state" that Cathy and your daughters would be "allowed to post." God help them to never have to get dragged into this lying pit of filth that violates everything pure from heaven no matter how far you try to stick yourself back into a "power plant." (You can turn this around Tim anytime you really want to, BTW...)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 1:01 am:

For readers at home concerning this "internet blocking" and "Oh my goodness!!! CONTROL!!!!" facade that keeps going on here (and an indirect answer to DanRepentRepent who also advocates unGodly and unwise "complete openness" so "people can decide for themselves" which is so, so, so ridiculous and UNWISE): We're back to the pagans folks... Once again, the PAGANS have more sense, more wisdom, more understanding, more couth, more savvy in matters of the internet than so-called "believers" do. The so-called "logic" of "opening things up so people can decide for themselves." Why don't we open up all kinds of sites so people can "decide for themselves"??? And blow themselves to smithereens spiritually. The people here are so "drunk" on their version of the "truth" that they can't fathom that no one wants to read this garbage or the garbage on the so-called "cult" site. Even pagans know that not everyone that "complains" about "free speech" and "letting everyone decide for themselves" and "censorship" has truth to share, but actually very dangerous stuff. And I'm not talking about just "porn" sites either. And it's not even so much the "content" on sites as much as the "cloak and dagger" of the internet itself. Do you guys realize that one of the most powerful senators of the 20th century just lost the Democratic nomination in his state (Joe Libermann, Connecticut) over lies and propoganda posted about him? I'm not stating my "support" for Joe Libermann here. I'm only stating that you can't believe what you read here and in places like here. In a sense you can't even believe what I write here. "FREE" AND "OPEN" INTERNET DISCUSSIONS AREN'T THE PLACE WHERE TRUTH CAN BE EFFECTIVELY SORTED OUT. Contrary to popular opinion. If you want to believe that it can, as GetAGrip says, that's your business. But the fact of the matter is that FactNyet and that "cult" board are only two of about 500 million other sites that are "blocked" in Indy. You wanna know what "Indy does?" They run a whitelist server like hundreds of thousands of other people -- a lot of them pagans. You wanna know why? Because from a technical standpoint, running a whitelist is the only way to insure that pornographic filth doesn't find it's way into your living room. It's really just that simple, people. There are hundreds and hundreds of technical articles on the internet now that tell people that the only real way to stop pornographic filth, cloak and dagger forums, and other predatory evils, is to run a whitelist proxy. Because you can't keep up with the filth -- estimates run as high as 37,000 sites an hour -- that go onto the internet every stinking day.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 1:03 am:

So for all those trying to "paint" Indy again as some "spiritual compound"... Again, they all live in middle class neighborhoods, drive middle class cars, work in middle class jobs, have middle class computers, and protect themselves like any other middle class pagan American is being encouraged to do in any number of help articles you might find on MS-NBC, Tech Talk, CNN, or anywhere else. And THAT'S why people like DanRepentRepent, GottaPost, UltimateTruthSeeker, and others here are so evil to paint the folks there the way they do. The people there live there voluntarily and have internet protection voluntarily. If anyone there truly wants a full-blown internet connection, they can get it. They just don't want to like any other sensible American. A lot of which are pagan. It's that simple. I run a whitelist proxy server myself at home and FactNyet and the "cult" board aren't on it as well as 500 million other internet sites and never will be. I found this site at work where I have a little more access and I like it that way. I know many other people both Christians and pagans who do the same. So maybe that'll ease all this accusation again about a "spiritual compound" where people are "imprisoned against their will." It's nothing like that. Time for one more and then I have to call it quits for now...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 1:07 am:

Tim blurts: The Meijers on 38th ST. The Wal-Mart on 86th St. are they still restricted shopping venues or has the ban been lifted? Again, for our readers at home: The Meijers on 38th street is in one of the worst neighborhoods in Indianapolis. There is crime up and down 38th street. There have been numerous crimes of murder, driveby shootings, car jackings, drug deals -- right out in the open, most of these happening in broad daylight -- in and around that area. The Layfette Square Mall is right in that area and a lot of crime happens there. Some of the crimes in that area have made state and even national headlines. A lot of innocent people have been car-jacked, shot, raped, and mugged in that area. I haven't been to the Wal-Mart on 86th street in years, so I can't remember the environment there, but I would imagine the reasoning there is nearly the same. Again it's absolutely evil of Tim to "paint" the folks in Indy as "restrictive" when out of loving consideration, as a church, each with their own close relationships sort of "spread the word" that maybe they shouldn't be spending time at places and placing themselves and their loved ones in situations where in broad daylight these kinds of crimes and gang activities are occuring with regularity. When my wife and I moved to the NorthEast, we started shopping at a Shaw's grocery and within a week of choosing that store a violent car-jacking took place at that store in broad daylight. Guess what? I told my wife we're never shopping there again. She of course agreed. Am I "controlling" my wife by telling her this??? Or being a loving, watchful husband??? Why would you want to shop in a place like that??? If someone you loved want to "do it anyway" wouldn't you at least question that kind of dangerous, blind, unwise (cocky??) decision??? "I want to shop in East St. Louis... I'm a 'free' man!!! Don't try and stop me!!! You're being 'legalistic'!!!" Okay... Go shopping in East St. Louis, or South St. Paul, or downtown Youngstown, or Harlem and have someone walk up to you and say "Guess what??? You just bought the farm..." (Something that really happened in a situation just like 38th St. Meijers in Indianapolis.) Go ahead, Tim. You are free to shop in places like that with your family and wife and like a zoombie place them in those kinds of "delicate" situations. Indy's just "being hard." :-( See??? That's the kind of "information" that is diabolically "left out" by Tim, GottaPost, and other "former members" from Indy. Do you think it says anything about Tim's LACK OF LOVE for his family and WIFE that he would even consider shopping in such crime ridden areas when the metro Indianapolis area offers much safers places to shop (like Keystone at the Crossing or some other place like that???) Not to mention how evil it is that he paints it this way??? Again, pagans are doing better, living better, sensing things better, and they don't have to sort through all this filth garbage ridiculous "logic" and lies to figure it out. God's name is BLASPHEMED among the Gentiles because of you Tim, DanRepentRepent, GottaPost, and others here. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 8:58 am:

Hey there GetAGrip... It's really very simple on the "unwise" and "foolish wide open Internet thing" in Indy... They don't do anything there that millions of other families (many of which are pagan), companies, churches, libraries, airline kiosks, internet cafes, and other real world entities do. They run with internet protection to protect young eyes and old from the incredible panaorama of mis-information and evil on the internet. What's so "fishy" and :cultish" about that? I really fail to comprehend this when this is such prevelant advice by Christians and pagans alike. I don't feel my company is "cultish" because they block tons of sites -- many of which I feel have "business value" (keeping it in context). How come they are so "controlling" and "cultish" at work or in the library or when I go over to other Christian friends' houses and they have "protection" up? Your other points about "long-windedness" etc. are well taken. I think this thread has gotten so long no one is going to take the time to read it. It's kind of "imploded" on itself. Which is mostly a good thing, really. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:15 am:

PS. You know, not at all to be demeaning, GetAGrip, and I don' t know if you have children or not, but maybe you'll understand this better when your teenage daughter or whatever children you have -- actual children or nieces and nephews or whatever -- get a hold of some Islamic site or some real cult site, read about it, and convert to that because you left the door "wide open" so she could "decide for herself." And now she's loading up on a plane somewhere with a bomb someone rigged in her iPod to blow herself and everyone else to kingdom come. That's a very real scenario these days that is happening everywhere. Conversions to Islam from the internet is one of the fastest growing trends in America today because we "let them decide" for themselves as followers of Jesus. Surely "Islam" isn't the only enemy of the cross and Jesus Christ on the internet, would you say? Do you tihnk that the followers of Islam allow sites that threaten their walks with "Allah"??? Certainly, as Tony Blair, the English Prime Minister, recently stated concerning those of Islamic "faith": "They certainly know what they are fighting for, don't they?" And yet for a follower of Jesus are you saying there is nothing at stake??? And so we see why there is a trend towards converting to Islam among Caucasian white college men and women because Islam stands for something. And we paint it here in America like Jesus does not. This prevailing "attitude" of "openness" is simply worldly "group think" and carnal entitlement and expectation that has crept into the church which is at the heart of the issues here in this forum. "Satan, the deceiver who is deceiving the entire world" as it says in Revelation, and the internet is exempt from that inspired Word and he's not using it in a powerful way to "deceive even the elect if that were possible???" I think not... Well, I'll leave you alone about it as you are graciously doing with me... :-) (Message edited by wirklichmir on August 24, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:48 am:

Cult_Fighter rants: Chris Oliver (sic), In response to your cute story: The point of all of this is not that we are the one despondent child that came back to murder his father. What we are saying is that the actual reality of the life lived does not match what is on the web site. Well Cult_Fighter, you're ranting and insinutations again of the so-called "guilt engine" there isn't "cute." The story is very pertinent. People who have been under the watchful, kind, loving, long-suffering, redemptive care of people in Indianapolis, like Joey in the story, are lying about the environment in Indy for God only knows why (and again we do know "why"), provoking others here to "put a spiritual bullet" into the heads of those who have lavished love on them, painting people there, and Mike in particular, to be someone he is not. So the story unfortunately is very, very pertinent. And again, with your "smokescreen" of "they say but do not do." Actually, that IS the very issue here is that they DO put into practice what they preach, which is exactly why we have this forum and that ridiculous "cult" web site. The result of "putting into practice these things" as Jesus said, causes outrage, which is another thing Jesus said would happen when people take seriously His words and DO them instead of just "instruct" others and themselves "about" them. You go over to DanRepentRepent's super-duper "cult" web site and his so-called "study" and "critique" on "marriage" with all his "hoodwinked" this and "double nagative, cancels this out, can't obey two commands at once, some commands outweigh others" blah, blah, this and that babble... Jesus said, "My commands are not burdensome" and Paul says that "where the Spirit is there is Life and Peace." It's not so hard and "complicated" to follow Jesus' commands. It's simple. It COSTS -- Jesus made THAT absolutely clear. But it's not so dramatically convoluted and difficult and confusing with all these "catch 22's" and "tie-breaker commands" that DanRepentRepent makes it out to be. That's the point. The people there do put into practice, Jesus's words -- sometimes very slowly over an 18 year period -- and that is exactly why all this is happening. People just don't like the outcome of that, as Jesus said would happen.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2006 - 9:53 am:

If this is all about "they say but do not do" then again, I hope you and DanRepentRepent bought enough server space to list all the churches that fall into that category because the list is very, very, very long. I've been to very few churches that exercise the simple Trust and the spiritual fortitude to "put into practice" the Word of God as they do in Indy and other places. The only problem is that the majority of churches' lack of "putting into practice" usually involves alot of omission, which keeps people comfortable in their sin (which some would prefer to be, as we see evidence here) and there is not the "out-crying" we see here. The fact that there is no outrage -- no outcry -- for 99% of the churches in America is almost proof that they "do not do" because Jesus said that if you did put into practice His Word, men absolutely, 100% are going to get upset about it. I didn't say Indy or Columbus was "perfect," but they do put into practice Jesus' simple teachings (only some of which are on their web site) in a simple (and loving) way. It's not so "convoluted" as DanRepentRepent would like to make it sound while also making it sound like he's "figured out" how to "tie break" Jesus' teaching when there's "comflicting commands" when it doesn't need any "tie-breaking" -- it's ALL to be OBEYED and CAN be for those who walk simply as "obedient children." -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, August 25, 2006 - 9:31 am:

A couple of quick hits here: (1) For Theophilus and others (Danielle, etc.) who keep talking about "choices" and people "not being given choices." You aren't hearing what I am saying. I'm going to write it big so everyone can see it and try to "comprehend it" (though you will not be able to): Everyone in Indy CHOOSES to have the internet protection that they have. It's THEIR CHOICE. Is that CLEAR??? Can you understand???? No one is "ramming it down" anyone's thoats there. If you all want to choose wide open access (and everything that comes with that), that's YOUR CHOICE. But that does not give you a right (nor does it logically follow) that that place because they use a type of protection that millions of other Americans use -- many that are PAGAN -- is a CULT. The REASON you guys "can't see, can't comprehend, can't HEAR with your ears and SEE with your eyes" is because again, you are SATANICALLY DRUNK on your evil and unGodly "opinions". (2) If Tim's daughter did as he said, no one I know would "condone" that kind of behavior. But no one here seems to care about the fair greater evil of a father that has "provoked his children to wrath" and has "caused one of God's little ones to stumble." Tim's sin in this IN GOD'S EYES is far, far, far, far, far greater. I'm not condoning what his daughter did and no one I know would either. But the "hand" being played here, I think, is becoming very, very obvious for those who truly know, love, and walk with Jesus, wherever they may be. This is nothing but a satanic lynch mob that resembles the crowd before Pilate and has absolutely nothing to do with "Indianpolis" but with a hatred for the very Life of Jesus as it was in His day. (3) Tim has indeed described the truth of situtation and the way Cathy really feels. And if anyone here or reading this privately believes that Tim is "okay" -- both in his living and treatment of Cathy and his children and his views on "divorce" which do NOT match Jesus' by any stretch -- then I openly question your walks and relationships with Jesus of Nazerath... Cult_Fighter and everyone else: This has absolutely nothing to do with "Indy." What you read of Tim is Tim's doing alone, and has nothing to do with "outside influence." You can "paint" it that way if you want, because as I said, everyone here is satanic drunk and bent on one agenda alone REGARDLESS of how diabolically evil anything else is. -ChrisO (Message edited by wirklichmir on August 25, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:39 pm:

For readers at home: One of the great "subplots" in the movie Rob Roy is the inner constitution of the two competing nobles in the movie -- the Duke of Argyll and the Marquis of Montrose. After a pretender, an imposter, a thief, and a murder in Montrose's "court" frames, robs, and tries to kill Rob Roy, in one scene before Rob Roy is hanged (by the imposter who has hunted him down in a final act of obliterating the evidence of his crimes), Rob Roy makes an appeal to Montrose on the basis of truth, or his belief that Montrose's "nobility" should carry with it the ability to "sense" the truth behind his situation. But Montrose, even though he does ultimately "know" Rob Roy is telling the truth, doesn't care. His incredible PRIDE (demonstrated throughout the movie and of which he accuses Argyll no less) keeps him from acting on what he knows to be true. So instead of hanging the rogue imposter who created the mess in the first place, he decides, in spite of knowing the truth, to hang Rob Roy. (Montrose also has a vendetta against Rob Roy because Rob Roy wouldn't help him spread lies, rumors and innuendos about Argyll for him. Hmmmm...) Rob Roy escapes, tells his story to the Duke of Argyll, and Argyll solely on the basis of hearing Rob Roy's story and sensing the truth in it shows TRUE NOBILITY and helps Rob Roy. What follows here is Cathy Szazynski's story -- Tim Szazynski's wife -- sent to me directly by her, uncut and unedited. This is HER story. I appeal to the TRUE NOBILITY of our readers at home to properly "sense" the truth. This is not an attempt to "split" her and Tim -- Tim is already doing a fine job of that on his own presently. But you all deserve to hear the "other side of the story" and then decide -- just like the Duke of Argyll did -- and understand just who the murders, pretenders, thieves and imposters here in this forum (and elsewhere) really are. (Since posting this won't matter to the imposters and pretenders in here. They will still try to blame this on someone else besides Tim...) -ChrisO WirklichMir144@yahoo.com (Message edited by wirklichmir on August 27, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:40 pm:

Hi Chris, I wrote a "summary" of what's been going on with Tim to bring Truth to those that have only heard Tim's lies spoken out of a vindictive, unrepentant heart. Perhaps it will be helpful to you and to those that WANT to see through the lies. You are welcome to post this or share it with whomever it could help. --cathy

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:41 pm:

I've heard that recently my husband has been contacting others that might possibly feel the same way that he does about the followers of Jesus in Indianapolis. My hope in writing this is so that those that may easily be unknowingly "fooled" by religious talk and hearsay, would consider that there may be a larger REALITY. (AND THERE IS ANOTHER SIDE, A TRUTHFUL SIDE, OF THE STORY). As Jesus said, "by their fruit you will recognize them." I submit to you, that if you are going to sit in judgment over words and ideas, then you will be deceived. Jesus was LIFE and His LIFE WAS THE LIGHT OF MEN. His Life was the testimony of Truth even though there were many conflicting, confusing ideas about Him. So, be careful NOT to embrace words and ideas ALONE!!! When Tim and I first got married, Tim had some strong "preferences". Some of them were health food, no birth control, and he was of the line of thinking that Christian women should not work outside of the home. We looked into having our first child birthed at home because Tim believed that was more "spiritual", as well. We met the Saints in Indianapolis four months after we got married and decided to move to where they were. I was pregnant with our first child, at the time. As our relationship with our new friends began to grow, Tim's ideas of health food, home birth, no birth control, and home school being "spiritual" were questioned and discussed. What was shared with us was that these ideas are not "spiritual". Having a baby at home is not more God's desire than having a baby birthed in a hospital. Health food and home school are not "spiritual", in and of themselves, either. I saw right away how Tim's ideas could lead us astray from God and lend to pride and judgment of others. However, Tim still struggled through the years. Some changes in his thinking did take place, but some were only submerged. I also began to sense during this initial time of being with our new Christian friends that Tim was less than happy that he was no longer the ONLY source of spiritual input into my life -- He no longer had my FULL attention, as he had prior to moving, and it bothered him.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:43 pm:

Tim and I lived in Indianapolis for 18 years. We lived in apartments for the first ten years and then several of us decided to purchase houses around a cul-de-sac together. At the time, Tim's income wasn't very high (around $24,000, and we had five children) so we didn't have enough money to really qualify for ANY mortgage for the house we were trying to purchase. Our friends worked with us to get the mortgage to work out, and paid for 100% of the down-payment for the house. (If it wasn't for the thousands and thousands of dollars given, it wouldn't have been possible for us to get a house near our friends at all. But, either way, we HAD to do something because the apartment we were living in did not allow more than three children in a room). We received money anonymously from our friends many times to put toward the down-payment. From the time that we were pre-approved for the house to the time the house was built, Tim had gone from being debt free to being $5,000 in debt, causing our loan to be denied. We went through another loan company while living in a friend's two bedroom apartment for close to a month. Our loan was finally approved, yet when we moved into the house, Tim had lost another job. Our friends helped us keep food on the table, bills paid, and a roof over our heads. Over the years when we lived there, Tim ran up so much debt and refinanced so many times, that when we were asked to leave, he owed thousands more than the original purchase price of the house. The friend who bought the house back from us gave us $10,000 more than the market value of the house. So, essentially our friends bought the house originally (because without the big lump sums of money and backing we never would have gotten into the house), and when we moved out, they paid for the years of credit card debt that we kept rolling into the mortgage every couple of years. We never really "owned" a penny of the house! During these early years, besides Tim loosing several jobs (he had at least eight different jobs in nine years), he also tried, at least three times, to start up his own business (in at least one of these cases the money to start up the business was paid completely for by our friends). His business attempts were never successful, and we were helped financially during each of these times with groceries, bills, educational materials, and other needs and desires. We were also given at least two vehicles during our time in Indianapolis. But, during the time when I didn't have a family van, we were very welcome to borrow vans anytime we needed one. And that is how we got around. When I needed to get to the grocery store; I borrowed a friend's vehicle. When I wanted to take the children to the library, or park, or to visit a friend, of take them on any other field trip, or outing; I borrowed a vehicle. When we wanted to go out to dinner as a family, or to the movies; we borrowed a vehicle. As you can see, we were VERY taken care of.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:44 pm:

Tim has always been very irresponsible with money. I paid the bills most of the time throughout our marriage, but it was always very stressful for me. Tim never saw the need to budget and therefore he spent money from his paycheck without first knowing how much money needed to go out toward bills. It was a continual frustration for me, so about a year before we moved, I told Tim that I could no longer take care of the bills since he would not heed by warnings regarding the finances. He told me to "let him fall". He knew that he wasn't responsible, but he didn't want to CARE to learn how to be better at managing his money. Other friends of ours tried to talk to him about his eye for "deals" and being sucked into sales gimmicks... but he didn't listen to their help either. One time he bought hundreds of dollars worth of a "powerful" new cleaner that you could eat (biologically safe) from someone walking door to door... in the end, it seemed to be nothing but a spray bottle of water. Another time, he bought a bike that had automatic gear shifting and it never worked smoothly. We mailed the bike back. However, it took close to a year to get the $300.00+ purchase off of our credit card. We could rarely get someone to answer the given phone number and when we DID reach someone, several times, the purchase was still not deducted from our credit card balance. Over the years, there were issues in Tim's life, besides his bad management of money, that were addressed by others and myself. Overall, Tim was aloof from his own family and wasn't devoted to others. He was a mystery! He never cared to know the extent of work and investment that was being poured into his own children's lives, both academically and spiritually. (I home schooled our six children with many other friends, who also taught their children at home. I had much help with educating the children! One lady who had no children of her own, came over 5 days a week and helped me with the younger children's education for 4 years! Also, other adults took total responsibility for teaching subjects such as Chemistry, Algebra, Biology, Geometry, Social Studies, Government and Spanish. My children were also involved in many social activities. Several of the fathers taught baseball, which my son was included in. Several women taught soccer to a group of children of which three of my daughters were included in. My two oldest daughters were involved in volleyball drills and games organized by some of the ladies and young adults there. My children LOVED the CONSISTENT CARE and ATTENTION!!! They often speak of missing their many friends. During the 18 years of living among this Christian group, I never had to find a daycare or a babysitter. Friends of mine were always willing to look after my children when I needed to go anywhere without them. (And no one ever charged a penny for caring for the children, even when I took on a part-time job for a season to try to make ends meet.) Obviously, the children enjoyed the relationships with many of the other adults, on a deep level... far deeper, than what was had with their father, because of Tim's lack of interest in their lives. (And, as far as I can remember, even though many adults spent much time investing in children's lives, Tim seemed to care for no one... his children, or anyone else's. Many brothers and sisters talked to Tim about his lack of care for the children, and I did too. But, it never changed. The children frequently talked about it seeming like their dad didn't care about them. It broke their hearts because they wanted his love and attention, and they still do).

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:45 pm:

So, after eighteen years of daily interaction of people trying to help Tim, and after at least fifteen different instances where others tried to help him, (not including the times that I tried to help him), we were asked to leave. (Their asking us to move was a n attempt to HELP Tim, NOT TO HARM HIM. Perhaps, the issues that had been addressed over the years would be more clearly seen by him.) Because Tim wanted to keep his job, he asked if we could just move thirty minutes away. The friend who talked to Tim said that he thought it was better if "we partnered from another city". (However, if he had decided to stay, no one would have stopped him. His job wasn't much to save, since he had already been almost fired 2 times, anyway)... When Tim was looking into other cities, he got on the internet and found some Christian writings by a man in Elizabethtown. Also during this time, the movie called, "Elizabethtown" was released. Tim told me, "God wants us to move to Elizabethtown," and "I've been called out to share the Gospel." He also said that he "had to be careful that he doesn't become prideful for God having called him out." Tim started looking for a place to live and a job in Elizabethtown. He found out that there weren't any big home builders in the area (the line of work that he was in). That meant he had to look in Louisville, KY. He ended up taking a job with Dominion Homes in Louisville. Tim also got a part time job at Cracker Barrel. His job with Dominion Homes only lasted three months. After the three months, Tim said that his employers weren't happy with his work, and that he didn't like the hour commute to work, so he quit the job (or was going to be fired, so he quit?). At this time, Tim started up his own handyman construction business and continued to work at Cracker Barrel in the evenings. His debt was very high so he worked with a debt reduction agency throughout the year. Several of the creditors did not accept the payoff terms, so Tim recently decided to declare bankruptcy.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:46 pm:

Prior to leaving Indianapolis, Tim NEVER mentioned any worries, concerns or problems with anyone or anything. He NEVER mentioned any desire to move. He seemed totally content. But, after we moved, Tim began to question "how" we were asked to leave. He believed that HOW he was asked to leave was not scriptural, but still respected our friends there. As time went on, however, resentment, bitterness, and vindictiveness began to manifest itself. I told Tim many times of what I was seeing in his behavior, but he would deny it. Then, because I wasn't sharing his attitudes toward our friends, he started to call me "controlled" and began to speak of our friends as if they were evil and to be "feared". However, while living in Indy, I was never told "what to do" or "what to believe" and I never heard of or witnessed ANYTHING even questionable. These people have been my friends and family for almost two decades and I know them intimately, and trust them completely. Yet with Tim, he refuses to respect "matters of conscience", and uses FEAR to INTIMIDATE the children and I to see things HIS way. He is a CONTROL FREAK! It's UNFATHOMABLE that he would accuse others of the very thing that he himself is GUILTY of!!! Though it was difficult and frightening for me to hear my husband speaking so demeaningly of people who had been dear friends of ours for almost twenty years, I tried my best to not aggravate him by contacting my friends very often. (I have spoken on the phone only three times with a friend of mine since moving, and e-mail contact has been very limited, and only when I initiate. My friends have also not wanted to anger Tim, or cause tension between us)... During the winter of 2005, Tim's bitterness and slander of my friends began to increase. He often became very angry at me when he realized that I was still in relationship with them, and wasn't partnering with him in his resentment and retaliatory spirit. After one of his fits of rage, I tried to leave with the children JUST until he calmed down, but he wouldn't let me. The children and I were AFRAID of his vindictive nature. As we tried to leave, Tim stood behind the van and threatened to take the air out of the tires. Obviously, he gave me no choice but to stay.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:47 pm:

Since that time, Tim has continued to grow in meanness and outbursts of anger and control toward the children and I, although we have given him NO CAUSE to treat us this way. Some examples of his "control" over our lives are that he disconnected the DSL line so that I couldn't readily e-mail anyone from the house because I wouldn't promise him to not have ANY contact with my friends. Tim also, out of spite, gave away the van that the children and I used, saying that he feared that I would leave (although I assured him many times that I had no intention of leaving) and because it was given by one of our friends from Indianapolis. He claimed that he couldn't trust me to not leave, (but ironically, he was also TELLING me to leave and saying things like, "YOU ARE FREE TO GO.") Around this time, Tim also took my bankcard and checkbook, even though I had made NO purchases without asking him first. Tim has continually pressed me and my oldest daughters to work outside of the home, in order to help financially, SUPPOSEDLY. My two oldest daughters have not finished their high school education yet, and we don't have a van. Also, I have four other children to educate, (which my daughters also help me with). After much tension over this matter, I finally told Tim that we could find some work that we could do in the home, despite our buy schedule. He said that he wanted them to get jobs outside the home. (Thus, it appears that Tim's reason for wanting my daughters and myself to work is not entirely for the money)... The children and myself are working most days on education, as the law requires, and trying to make the most of a difficult situation. We are mostly at home (except for walking to the local library, on occasion) since we are now without transportation. Tim often mocks us for being at home all of the time working on schoolwork. He has called us "hermits" and has accused us of being "afraid", on several occasions, yet, HE is the one who took away our means of transportation! (When we did have transportation, we were getting to know other people in two different home school organizations.) Tim mockingly said to me, "how hard is it to teach children how to read?" He obviously doesn't realize, or appreciate, the work involved in educating his OWN children.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:48 pm:

Tim has threatened multiple times to throw our eighteen-year-old daughter out of the house, calling her a free loader. She doesn't know anyone here in Elizabethtown and hasn't finished her education. (Which he said that he wouldn't help invest in.) Tim would be forcing her to live on the streets by throwing her out of the house. His threats, malice, and general "unlove" have had the children in tears numerous times!!! Many times, over the year, Tim has told the children and I, "food and clothing; be content", but he has only given me $60 to spend at goodwill, $20 to spend at a consignment shop and recently (AFTER filing for bankruptcy and AFTER being confronted on his neglect of us) $100 for pants for my son and t-shirts for my oldest girls. That is it, for the year, for 6 children! (Yet, Tim can afford to have a monthly membership at E-Town Swim & Fitness, and has also used his money to take three trips with a rental car. Two of the trips were to meet up with religious friends of his. And, he also was paying for someone else's rental car for at least a week? Was it a girl?! Several times Tim has brought groceries home, only to take several items to another person. He has given away some of the children's videos and my blender. All without asking any of us, or any apologies). While Tim was away on one of his trip, a tooth of mine broke. I called and told him what had happened. He paid for me to go to the dentist to have it looked at and to find out what the options were on how to fix it... However, when he returned, he NEVER cared to follow up to ask what needed to happen with my tooth. Several weeks went by before I eventually used some money that some of my friends in Indianapolis had sent to get it fixed. Also, I gave Tim a list of educational needs for the children. He told me that I could use some tax money that was coming in. I never saw any money, nor did he care to bring it up again with me. Eventually, I used money from my friends and when he found out, he accused me of being "sneaky." (However, he clearly told me that I could receive any money, but that he didn't want to know about it. ) During the year, our eldest daughter had an inflamed wisdom tooth that needed to come out. Tim said he had "no money for such things." Our friends gladly helped with this as well. I understand having financial difficulties, NO PROBLEM, but again, Tim had enough for his own health club membership, enough for other people's needs, and enough for three week long trips with a rental car. In addition, his potential money making abilities are much greater, but he refuses to look for different work.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:50 pm:

I called an abuse hotline while Tim was away on one of these trips since the children were increasingly more emotional about the next outburst and I was wondering if he was breaking the law with his behavior. (Tim wasn't listening to me when I spoke to him about the obvious sins: anger, bitterness, resentment, retaliation, abusive control. I thought that perhaps he would hear if he knew that he was breaking the laws of the land... or was at least VERY CLOSE to doing so!!) I shared what was happening with the woman there. She said that the behavior and incidents that I described sounded like typical behavior of an abusive, controlling spouse. She even asked me if Tim was from an Islamic country. After a very difficult night with the children in tears, Tim had another outburst of slander and threats in front of the children, so I called 911. Three policemen came to our home, and after hearing the incidents that have happened over the past year, offered to escort the children and I to a domestic violence abuse shelter, here in Elizabethtown. I didn't WANT to leave; I just wanted Tim's anger, threats and control to stop! I just couldn't watch him scaring the children any longer and do nothing. During the time at the shelter, I tried to help Tim by corresponding with his closest long-distance friend that he has made since moving. I tried to give this friend a fuller picture of what was happening at home. Unfortunately, he ended up to be not much help. Also during this time, I contacted Tim two times to try to come to some agreement, but he was EVERY BIT as unreasonable and strong in his vindictive attitude toward my friends, calling me an "insubmissive" wife because I didn't share in his beliefs. When it was clear that us being away wasn't helping him, I did come back home after a week because I want(ed) to be faithful to the marriage covenant that I made before God. Within twenty minutes of the children and I arriving home, Tim launched into another one of his attacks. He gave me this ultimatum: give him my cell phone (which I hadn't used to call anyone long distance) and let him take the children anywhere he wanted, or he was going to get a legal separation. He also said that he was going to cut our home phone service and get a P.O. Box for our mail so that he could search it for anything that would come from my friends. Although I had made no calls either on the home phone or on the cell to anyone in Indianapolis up to this time, I told Tim the next day that he could take the cell phone and could take the children with him, should he want to. It didn't deter him though... He told me LATER THAT DAY that he was seeking a divorce because he says he wants to remarry. Because I don't "believe" as he does and I won't partner in his retaliatory attitudes, he says that I am an insubmissive wife and an adulteress. By getting a divorce, Tim is now CONDONING something that God clearly HATES. He is clearly attempting to ABANDON his wife and children, thus ignoring the COVENANT he made before God. (Even IF I had done something to justify this behavior, isn't the attitude of Jesus always to redeem and help, rather than abandon and pursue his own flesh?!) Even though I have agreed to all Tim's ultimatums and commands, that did not violate my conscience, and didn't fight at all when he cut our dsl line, gave away my van, took my checkbook, threatened to to cut the home phone and cell phone services... Tim STILL says he wants divorce.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:51 pm:

Within days of Tim telling me that he was looking into divorce, his brother, David, who lived three houses down from us for the last seven years of living in Indianapolis, e-mailed Tim. In his letter, David attempted to remind Tim of all of the love and kindnesses shown to him and his family during the eighteen years of living in Indianapolis by our friends. He begged Tim to change his attitude and to REMEMBER all that he had deliberately chosen to forget. But, even his own brother's very heartfelt letter to Tim did nothing to soften or slow his anger. Since being home from the abuse shelter, I have been concerned about not having money to buy groceries because Tim has been at home much of time, instead of out working. He has worked 3-4 nights a week at Cracker Barrel, but we can't pay our bills on that income alone. During these days that Tim has been at home, he has been on the phone for hours at a time. The children and I have overheard some of his conversations... he has been talking slanderously of the children, myself, and our friends in Indianapolis. Tim is partnering with others who have the same beliefs as he does, and has been poisoning the minds of the "innocent" by trying to create fear of "the Christian group in Indianapolis" by calling it a "cult". (Yet, how can Tim be telling the truth now about how much he hates and despises my friends and thinks that they are "dangerous" when 2-3 months ago he asked me for a teaching book on children written by some Saints in Indianapolis to give to some friends of his. He told me that he had never heard such wise teaching anywhere else on that subject. I also found out recently, that Tim contacted some friends of mine in Indy, and in writing, ASKED them to take care of myself and the children and told them that he would "send money when he could". Again, HOW can Tim be telling the truth? Does HE even believe in his OWN mind that the Christians in Indy are a "dangerous cult" or is he only trying to create unnecessary "fear" in others out of revenge?). One of the phone calls that Tim has made in the last week was to my parents. He tried to turn them against me by telling them lies about me and my friends. Prior to this, I had been working on a trip to see my parents for a week. They had even sent me some money to get a rental vehicle...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Sunday, August 27, 2006 - 10:52 pm:

On August 16, Tim went to a lawyer to declare bankruptcy, and also look into getting a divorce. Because I am a Christian, I believe that God HATES divorce, and that therefore, I AM contesting Tim's recent course of action. I have told Tim several times that I thought that things could change, and that I was against the divorce. I have done the research on the laws for divorce in this state and found that there is little that I can do to KEEP Tim from following through. However, I would like to make CERTAIN that Tim provides much better for his responsibilities (his wife and children) than he has been. If his support of us is based on his current income, that will be absolutely insufficient and unfair, since he COULD make enough money to provide for us if he CARED to... but Tim is making NO EFFORT, at this point, to really take any better care of even HIS CHILDREN. It would be nothing short of Tim ABANDONING us! The lease is up on the house we are currently renting in a month (September 19th) and I would not be able to continue living here without getting a job. I have no vehicle and four children to educate, plus two children that haven't yet completed their high school courses, but would very much like to... Tim claims to have the attitude of Jesus, "Father, forgive them..." however, his choices to slander and demean the character of myself, my children, and our friends by twisting the truth, omitting certain facts, and name-calling. He works to incite fear and mistrust WITHOUT CAUSE TO DO SO!!! His actions speak louder than what he CLAIMS to be. So!!! PLEASE DON'T BE FOOLED BY THIS MAN'S WORDS. HIS ACTIONS ARE FUELED BY HATRED, BITTERNESS, and RELIGIOUS MADNESS!!! Even if you think you can rationalize Tim's behavior, as expressed through this letter, certainly a man who is embracing what God CLEARLY HATES: divorce... and thinks nothing of abandoning his wife and six children... should speak VOLUMES to those who's Love for Jesus is genuine. I AM hopeful for change, but in the meantime I don't want any innocent Lambs hurt by what Tim is speaking out of an Unrepentant, vindictive heart. ALL FOR JESUS!!! Cathy Szazynski

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 5:56 pm:

I'm a little appalled that ChrisO would have posted that, and that Cathy would have written it in the first place (if she did). And I'm a little appalled Jen that you and Dennis, in calling yourself "believers" and "disciples," would wrap your arms around Tim and comfort and coddle him while he continues to openly admit to feelings, thoughts and intentions so gross that no pagan would have any problems seeing he's in seriously bad shape, much less HOLY GOD. GOD says that ANYONE that "will not provide for his family is worse than an unbeliever." But apparently, your "love" and everyone else's in here is GREATER than God's. You're in a very, very scary position here, as are quite a number of you in here (on a number of fronts). I'm also appalled that you seemingly have no ability to compassionately see into her situation, see that she earnestly desires the right things, and in spite of being Godly and also submissive as she can (without disobeying God), is being absolutely TERRORIZED by Tim right now. Dear God, the pagans understand, can discern, and have more compassion and care in this situation (as those at the shleter and the police indicate) than ANYONE in this forum has who calls himelf a "Christian" or a "believer" (in WHAT?)... Does anyone think maybe we should get back on topic now, and stop making this "The sins of Tim Szazynski" board??? I'm also appalled that you and others here fail to take responsibility for this board and it's existance at all and most especially that it's turned into what it's turned into. All this PUBLIC MESS and "public sin board" stuff is YOUR FAULT (all of you in here), now isn't it? People in Indy and Columbus where living their lives, minding their own business, and you guys created all this. And again, the self-serving, one-way, Jedi-mind trick logic that says "Let's change the subject, let's go back to our 'witch hunt' now." When Tim posted about his relationship not one word was uttered in complaint. Because again, it served your diabolical, pre-concluded end. But when people show up and demonstrate, as his blood brother has, that this has nothing to do with "Indy" but that Tim's life has been a WRECK since DAY 1, then it's "off topic." It's a topic and an approach that you all picked and no one else. You are the one's that made "Indy" and everything associated with it "on topic." (Unless of course it doesn't prove the pre-concluded end.) Tim, if you are reading this, understand the origin of all this, and also how you are being used as a pawn. You'll just be spit out later when you serve no more useful end. It may take some years, but don't say I didn't warn you.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 6:07 pm:

Suddenly I am SO much more thankful for the great, LOYAL brothers I have! Somehow, I can't see either of my brothers taking sides against me and ASKING ME TO LEAVE! They would leave their silly church friends before they would side against me. It's called "family", dude, and you don't seem to know much about it! Well, that's not what JESUS said about it, is it? Suddenly we see why "Indy" is villified because this is in direct contradiction to scripture. (Not that anyone in here cares, since there are many contradictions in here...) God doesn't call blood-bought Christians, "silly church friends" and he says BEFORE you can follow Him, you have to start by leaving everything else behind. Tell me, Cult_Fighter... Where does it say ANYWHERE IN SCRIPTURE that sins should be overlooked, coddled, and/or swept under the carpet because someone is someone else's "blood brother"??? Show me ANY commands of Jesus, Paul or any other apostle of God that wrote a command that ended with "unless he's your blood brother -- then you an ignore what I just wrote." WHERE????? Everyone is related to someone. If God's commands can't be applied because of "blood relationhips" then guess what??? "Cast the evil man out from among you -- unless you are blood related to him." "Warn a divisive man once, then twice, then have nothing more to do with him -- unless you are blood related to him." "Remove the leaven from your midst -- except those to whom you share blood relations." "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. But do not carry this expection of anyone where a blood relative is involved. That would be sin, for God expects you to honor and revere your blood relationships at ALL COSTS, even above the very obeying of His Word." I would have to quote most of the NT here, Cult_Fighter (and others here who share the same malady and spirit of blindness.)... Dave Szazynski is simply doing what Jesus said, and this is EXACTLY why Jesus said to COUNT THE COST: If ANY MAN does not hate father or mother, sister or brother, son or daughter, friend or even his own life, he CANNOT be my disciple. You cannot even begin or start on the path to following God (but you will be left to THINK you can if you want) if you don't love God and value the obedience to his commands MORE than your blood relatives. That's what JESUS said. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 8:59 pm:

Jen: I didn't say you started this board. I said you guys started the DIRECTION and APPROACH that this board is NOW IN by inviting names, places, faces on here to gather TESTIMONIES supporting this evil AGENDA. Now that's what I'm talking about. I also stated when I first came on this board that names, places, faces were despicable to use here, and what I got back when I said that was "Oh... we're only using first names and initials..." and now look what it's come to. And also recall that I didn't just "join the bandwagon", but again came here by invitation because everyone was so DRUNK and PRIDEFUL and UTTERLY CONVINCED that NO ONE would speak in Indy's favor. Go back and read my first posts, Jen. I said that the direction then with names, places, faces was despicable. But again, anything that served you guys' predetermined end has been put on this board and hung out and invited, and it's entirely YOUR FAULT (PLURAL -- ALL OF YOU GUYS) THE DIRECTION this board has taken. And Denny's name would never, ever have appeared here if some so called "cult experts" hadn't decided to post that newspaper article like a bunch of self-appointed "know it alls." And then Dan had that post with Denny's name removed. Isn't it a bit ironic that the very newspaper article that STARTED all this is now considered one of the most important artifacts on that "cult" web site??? And you continue to "cry foul" about the very thing that started it all. And the rest of your post is just henious and again shows that anything and everything will be twisted to show this how you WANT it to appear. It doesn't matter what Indy does. Kick 'em out? They're a cult. Love 'em and try and help 'em? They're a cult. Spend no money on them? They're a cult. Lavish love on them and be long-suffering for 18 years? They're a cult. Spend thousands? They're a cult. Support people? Well, they're just trying to "manipulate people" and make sure they stay, so they're a cult. If people appear "unsupported" (to you)? They're a cult. Why didn't you kick 'em out sooner? Well, 'cause they're a cult. And you say of Cathy, "Where's the PROOF OF THIS???" She wrote??? She told you what's going on under her own roof??? Surely you couldn't possibly be simplying here that everyone and anyone should believe everything you guys write at pure face value, villifying Indy -- that's all the "proof" anyone should need, but we can't possibly believe what others write??? It's not proof enough??? That is indeed what you are saying, Jen... Can anyone reading at home follow along with this yet??? That what they write is to be taken as proof positive, and when someone else writes it's "how can we believe them"??? That no matter WHAT is said, the people in that city cannot ever win??? -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 9:31 pm:

First_Truth: How about which stores to visit. Never been done. I've already answered the question as to why certain shopping areas should be avoided and why (the motive of love behind it), and if people still want to shop there, they can (and do): http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=332107#POST332107 How about never making eye contact with another man? Most women I pass in the hall at work, on the street, and in shopping areas do not make eye contact with me nor my male coworkers and in fact it's easy to see that they avoid it. Again, pagan women. Better judgement. Christians here making it seem like it's a "big deal." Most women know eye contact invites things they don't want. I've seen this discussed in regular, mainline Christian women's magazines. On the flip side, almost "girlie" articles in magazines like Cosmo (those written by children of the devil), etc. say as part of their number one advice giving that if you want to attract a man to you (in the bar or even shopping places are recommended as places to pick up "sensitive men")...? Make eye contact. So what's your point??? Blantantly worldly magazines like Self, Cosmo, (and I don't know many others because I don't frequent the magazine rack) will tell you to "make eye contact" to "get things going"... Wouldn't good sound counsel dictate that women who want to be pure and avoid unwanted contact with worldly men (as again many women at my work place do -- a Fortune 100 company with 30,000 employees)??? I fail to see your point other than somehow this is supposed to "indicate" something. And your "Exhibit A" on "wills"... Go to estate planner sometime. They have as many wills and will configurations as can be imagined. A missionary from Germany of a mainline denomination that my family has known for over 40 years now, came home and began working as an Estate Planner for a large and well known Christian non-profit org. His job is get people in their denominations to donate as much of their estate as possible to that denomination. Wills come in all shapes and sizes and there's absolutely no guarantee that many of you aren't being "written out" of wills that you would expect part of the estate from. Happens all the time. I fully expect to be written out of my dad's will because he started another family and it's all going to go to his second wife. They are Christians. Should I feel "ripped"??? It's their will. Again, what's your point??? -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 - 10:07 pm:

Again Jen: And again, if Cathy was so terrorized by Tim, why did they send her off with him? If spouses are "split up" (or so it's said)... They are a cult. If they don't (see above)... They are a cult. "You gave 'em too many chances! That's unloving!" (or "That's manipulative, you hurt 'em!") "You don't give people enough chances! That's unloving!" Like I said, no matter what they decide, keep 'em, don't, love 'em, don't, support 'em, don't, spend on 'em, don't. They are a cult. I'm not trying to be funny here, only help others reading this to see clearly that those that sit in judgement here have all the answers, and whatever this group does is to be second-guessed, labeled, judged and slandered. We've come full circle now. The person who started this is now back in relationship with his brother as Dan mentioned... -ChrisO (Message edited by wirklichmir on August 29, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 05, 2006 - 11:50 pm:

For readers at home: While it could not be debated that those running Indianapolis Families Against Cults have never agreed with the church in Indianapolis (and I know of some outside of the Indianapolis church who, upon inquiry w/IFAC, don't agree with Indianapolis Families Against Cults), it's interesting that: (1) I doubt they've ever (eg. IFAC) had the "phones ringing off the hooks" until this slander site and "cult" site were put up by DanRepentRepent (Tim Dennis in Columbus). That site currently has almost 1000 individual hits. If just 5% of those people called Indianapolis Families Against Cults (which Tim is heavily encouraging people to do on his "cult" site), then that would be 50 calls, which, yeah I would consider that "significant" but again, consider the "call generation mechanism" at play here. (2) I told Tim Dennis that if he wanted to be "more convincing" at least change the look and feel of all those sites he's generating and putting up so others at least can't tell right off the bat that Tim is generating them all. He told me that was a good idea. (Tim claims that there is "an explosion of new sites going up all over the internet" and he's generating most of them -- they all look the same.) To date, I know of only one distinct site that calls Indianapolis a cult and that is Tim's "indianapoliscult" site. All the so-called "discussion groups" were spun off by him or those associated with him here. In addition there are the blogs that Jen and Dennis Elslager run, but no one would objectively call their sites DEDICATED to the Indianapolis church -- they have other stuff on them (though Dennis' blog runs dangerously close to being dedicated to Indy -- most of the material on there relates to them in one way or another). And Dave Norris' "Spiritual Pathway Ministries" site. That's it. None of this has existed for the 20 years the church has been in existance, and I doubt seriously Indianapolis Families Against Cults has fielded a lot of calls previous to these other sites going up recently. Again, these can all be tied to people in this forum "generating" things with the exception of Dave Norris' site. So all this sounding like people are suddenly being filleted alive by people in Indy... This is all generated by the disenchants here. -ChrisO PS. BTW, I was told by one of the leaders in Columbus that Tim Dennis was never a part of the church in Columbus. I'm just telling you what they said about it, and I understand that that has something to do with all this. Tim's angry at people who would not be manipulated, as others here are. I'm sure Tim will "respond" to this, but I'm just telling you guys at home based on my own investigations what they said. I'm not going to play "he said, they said" with Tim here... And may I remind everyone here of the "rules of engagement" in this forum. That will save some copy on their part to help you all remember that... If someone from or in support of Indy or Columbus states something here, it should be instantly questioned as to whether it's true and generally considered false. But if they say something... You should believe it immediately, never considering that there could be hidden motives and left out facts involved in all they are saying and how they "paint" things. So I'm just telling you what someone in Columbus told me (one of their leaders), but you shouldn't believe it of course. "An explosion of new sites on Indy" indeed... Hmmmmm... :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:05 am:

"Theophilus" writes: I think that perhaps you may have failed to recognize from earlier postings, that it is not quite that simple. The Indy group runs a proxy server and white list, which intercepts any outside email sent to any of their members directly, and instead redirects everything or pools every post in Mike Peters computer. To readers at home: You know, this kind of crazy, ridiculous nonsense is just rampant on this site. First of all, technically, this isn't even possible with a "white list proxy" or how a "white list proxy" works. A "white list proxy" only deals with web (HTTP) traffic and has nothing to do with email. NOTHING. Secondly, I was involved in some of the technical details of the setup there -- this is the kind of thing I do as a consultant for Fortune 100 companies -- and no such setup exists. All mail sent to individual addresses at that domain go directly to the respective owners. Mike can't even keep up with his own mail much less read everyone else's. (Last I heard, he receives hundreds of emails a day, all directly addressed to him, and since his email address was carelessly and unlovingly posted here w/o his permission, that has probably tripled...) You just have to shake your head sometimes at what people here come up with by way of lies, slander, exaggeration and other things like that to "paint" these guys the way they do. Technically they are doing nothing that probably 50% or more of the churches in this nation are doing and places like Graham, Last Days, Dobson, YWAM, etc. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:32 am:

Somewhere recently, Jen mused again: I don't know why ChrisO defends them if he's not living there. (paraphrased) Well, Jen, it's really simple. I'm defending them because: (1) I was there and know they are being grossly and unjustifably represented here. (2) Because I personally have been directly involved with at least 50% (if not more) of the people involved or mentioned on this site, and I know what happened in those situations. (3) Because I believe Truth is at stake here. Not just "in Indianapolis." I've actually been accused privately of that by some here because I continue to post here. What people don't understand is that if you have a problem with Indianapolis and with their teachings then you also have a problem with Andrew Murray, A.W. Tozer, Oswald Chambers, Watchman Nee, T. Austin-Sparks, William Law, George Warnock, Jonathan Edwards, Charles Finney, and a host of other men who have gone before who are now "celebrated". Those men in my opinion are "on trial" here as well. In my mind, this isn't so much about "Indy" as it is about Truth. And that's why I keep "defending them" here, because "them" is a whole lot more than "Indy." But of course, someone will stop by and state that it's not their teachings that are on trial here but "what they do." Well, then... We're back full circle again because I know what's happened in most of the "cases" here, and after living with them for 4 years and being in relationship with some of them for almost 30 years, I know also how they act, what they do, what their real values are, etc. That's why I kept showing up here. Because I know that if we could take this to a court room where the real evidence could be presented and weighed and the lies and concocted "evidence" thrown out, I am very, very, very confident in what the outcome would be. That is going to happen one day, one way or another, and I don't mean in this life...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:37 am:

BTW, Jen, where does the Bible say that leaders are to be scrutinized??? WHERE??? In my Bible, every place where a leader is scrutinized, especially in the manner Mike and others are being drawn into question here (I'm talking about the process being used here and the attitudes behind it and not that it could ever be done). GOD rose up in judgement over those kinds of things. And strange that whenever I ever saw Mike approached -- as a brother to a brother and not an accuser to a brother -- I've always seen Mike as extremely soft. He's not manipulatiable, which is exactly the issue behind the curtain that others here can't see, but when approached "brother to brother," I've always seen him soft. I've heard of situations recounted to me by people with him that he refused to talk to someone that wanted to talk to him because that person wanted to exclude another brother who was not "a leader" from the conversation. (The guy wanted to "talk to a big-shot leader" and Mike wouldn't let him. He said, "If you aren't going to hear what this regular brother has to say along with me, then I've got nothing to say to you either.") That's how much Mike values being equal with people and not being "lifted up" above other people. Which ironically takes us full circle on this site because that was one of the first stinging accusations here was that he must be "hiding something" because his name isn't plastered all over everything. He just wants to be a brother and not "elevated." But he's not going to "bow" to accusations or power-plays or undue pressure either in the game of satanic manipulation. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, September 06, 2006 - 12:45 am:

PS. The person in the conversation I mentioned above with Mike was impressed by Mike's response and allowed the other brother to speak and the conversation went on from what I understand. The point wasn't to give you guys more "ammo" for saying "See!! See how Mike refuses to do things and is ugly!!" The point is to demonstrate one time out of zillions how Mike stands along side (and not "towering above") those he's around. Although, now that I've mentioned it, maybe now readers at home have a better idea of the "situations" in which Mike "refuses" to do something and WHY.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, September 07, 2006 - 10:45 pm:

Just one quick post here without reading anything else above which I don't have time for right now: Here's one thing I need to make absolutely crystal clear. I am not a participant here to act as your "go between" for Cathy, Mike, Dave or anyone else. Funny, isn't it when it's your agendas, it's okay to ask (demand?) that I talk to Cathy while she's having difficulty with Tim. I think that would constitute "interferance" right now, but again, when it serves your evil purposes here, it's okay to "ask." Don't ask. This is a quagmire you all started and I am not here to do your evil bidding as a lot of you are drunk on your evil agendas, blinded by your pride, arrogance and pompous entitlement. I post here so that others reading have a chance to hear "the other side of the story" and to provide them with something else besides the vile vomit that is spewed in this place. Interesting again, isn't it, that Mike gets painted for "telling people what to do" (when he's never, ever told me what to do in the 20 years I've known him), but here, I'm viewed entirely in line with the very allegations against everyone in Indy. Readers at home: Do you think the way I am frequently addressed and "asked" to do things here has anything at all to do with why most of the people in here have had problems with the church in Indianapolis, Columbus, and even have a history (some) of problems in this same vein with other churches (outside of Indianapolis and Columbus)? Do you think these attitudes were formed yesterday? No...! The same arrogance, prideful carrying of themselves here is exactly why this forum exisis in the first place, because most of the people in here tried to MANIPULATE people who wouldn't allow themselves to be manipulated. So... THEY GOT MAD AND LEFT (or others could see through their facades and their visits to these places were "frigid"). And so... here we are. Of course, you can "write" and "ask" whatever you want, but understand, I am not here for your "bidding", so... don't waste your time or mine "asking." -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 11:15 pm:

Someone using a psuedonym of "threeseas" writes: I dont (sic) remember in the scriptures where Jesus said to go undercover and be deceitful... A rather ironic way of putting it, wouldn't you say? Surely there are absolutely NO examples of this kind of "anonymous" and "deceitful" behavior inside this forum, are there??? :-) :-( -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 12, 2006 - 11:40 pm:

For readers at home: Just so you all know at home, the reason materials are just "left" with no explanation and little face to face contact (in general -- sometimes there is and it's not a big deal), is because, again... People are left to make their own choices and need to be. This is a important sentiment that everyone I know in Indianapolis (and many outside Indianapolis) carries. All the "recruitment" and "confrontation" stuff isn't what Jesus wants; people need to be left alone to make their own choice. But of course the "spin doctors" here in this forum can't understand that. Not to mention that all materials (as far as I know) do have contact information in them, so people CAN contact whoever left the materials or the church in Indianapolis if they want. Alot of people I know (including myself when I leave materials) will leave a personal contact number or personal email address so that he (I) can be contacted if the person finding and reading the material wants to. While a part of a large, very "evangelistic" church in the NorthEast once (which some would call a "cult"), they employed more "proactive methods" one could say, often to the point that several major universities banned that group from their campuses. Nobody wants someone "up in their face," "convincing" them of anything. People need to make their own choice and recruitment for "your group" is just wrong. (Again, even pagans know this.) But again, left to the "spin doctors" in here, the church in Indianapolis or anyone supporting them, can't win. Recruit -- they're a cult. Back off, lay low, leave people to make their own choice (with an "invitation to Jesus" and NOTHING else), don't recruit (and leave God to have all the glory), and you guessed it -- they're a "cult." -ChrisO PS. BTW, my understanding is that there are no known ties between anyone in Indianapols, IN and Columbus, IN. If someone is doing that in Columbus, IN, then they are doing it completely on their own. Little do they know that they are being slandered and maligned here, more than likely. But oh well...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 2:53 am:

To readers at home: Imagine what the world of navigation on the high seas would be like if every captain of every ship viewed lighthouses as things to sail straight toward and attack instead of instruments that help guide them AWAY from and AROUND imminent danger and destruction. (And instructed others to "view" lighthouses the same way as they do.) Well, in very short order, there would be no one sailing. And the rocky shores would be littered with busted up ships, simply because the "perspectives" of those captains were entirely reversed from what they should have been. The lighthouses they sought to destroy and attack were only there to help them, but they never saw it that way. That's pretty descriptive of the "captains" in this forum, and woe to any who "board their ships" while under their command with this kind of view and perspective, which "twists" everything in their minds concerning "lighthouses" (no matter what anyone ever says or tries to convince them of -- whether in speaking or in writing -- they always "see", "perceive" and interpret things through this distorted view.) Dennis Elslager is one of the most twisted, self-deceived, and deceptive persons I know, especially with some of what he last wrote. Definitely go and read the "risk" page at http://www.AllAtHisFeet.com/risk.html... Where does it say ANYWHERE that that church is the only church that has things right??? WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT??? Those people and that site do ANYTHING but say something like that about ANYONE, but Mr. evil Dennis Elslager -- the same person who positions himself here as an "expert" on Indy after only five weeks there, but at the same time denies those people the same right with him -- "spins" the "risk" thing again in a way that frankly doesn't exist. Can anyone here dispute that Jesus said those things about ANYONE who truly follows Him??? See... The article is absolutely 100% true, but Dennis makes it sound like it's about "them" -- when it's not. It has absolutely NOTHING TO DO WITH THEM. It's simply a warning that all who follow Jesus -- and their claim that they are following Jesus is in no way suggestive that they are the ONLY ones, except to those with this weird "lighthouse attack syndrome" -- will come under the same kind of scrutiny, attacks, slander, judgments and slight of hand "justice" that is on display here.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 3:00 am:

Irony drips from Dennis Elslager's mouth every time he opens it because as someone whom I have observed personally, first-hand for those same five weeks in Indy (not only living across the carport from him, but also observed in many, many meeting situations and saw how he carried himself and heard what came out of his mouth, in person, many times), my eye witness account of him is that he is entirely guilty of every single thing he accuses Mike Peters of. He is a "spin doctor" supreme. He "sounds" so "good" with little hyper-spiritual phrases on his blog site (eg. "I was sitting down to open my Bible scripture software which I so often do and so love doing..." -- self-proclaiming phrases like this, little "build ups" of how "well he supposedly knows scripture" and other things like it, are literally riddled all over his site... compare the way he "carries himself" online to the way the people in Indy carry themselves, just between the two sites even...) How can ANYONE trust or even consider the things that someone says that weighs things the way Dennis does??? You may be "on his side" for now, but if you ever get on his "bad side" (which is actually not too hard to do -- all you have to do is oppose him or disagree with him) and watch and see the "slight of hand" that he pulls out and uses against you. The little "I can judge them with 100% accuracy after 5 weeks, but they can't possibly even know of or judge me properly at all" is only one of about a million slight of hand, Jedi mind tricks this guy pulls and has pulled here. (Or gigantic 12-year long temper tantrums -- tactics children use all the time to manipulate with parents [a form of "terrorism" by the way] -- when he doesn't get his way, which is all that happened that day in the resturant in Indy when someone stood up to him and wouldn't let him continue to develop his "leadership" ideas when he was spiritually at the time in no condition to do so, and whose "tantrum" and "spiritual terrorism" is still happening now.) And, by the way, the reason I won't "defend" the "withholding affection" thing here is because Cult_FIghter is ironically very right. It IS "indefensable"....... HERE IN THIS FORUM where we have a kangaroo court in session and the captains here "perceive" ligthouses as things to sail straight towards and attack (and the rocky shore is fast approaching, Dennis, and others here, as Jude makes very, very, very, very clear -- the darkest places in hell are reserved for people like you and others with you here unless you turn around.) So that's why I'm not going to waste my time in here "defending" things from scripture when the people in here are incapable of "rightly dividing the Word of truth" as Paul wrote. (Which is also why Jen's mishandling of scriptures on leaders will not be addressed as well.) To the "blind leading the blind" on their "sailing ships" in here, it makes no difference what anyone says so it's pointless "casting pearls before swine."

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 3:07 am:

But you, Dennis, are personally guilty of nearly every accusation you level at Mike Peters. And you're an evil snake to cause people to even feel a lump in their throats by even openly suggesting or comparing him and the people there to David Koresh and the Waco compound. (Now THAT'S "spiritual terrorism", folks...) Those people live smack dab in the middle of middle class neighborhoods, own their own homes, work in some of the best and most respected companies in America, and most of them wouldn't even know a gun if it were staring them in the face. That is in extremely sharp contrast to what was going on in Waco where they were living in a compound, away from society, a lot of them didn't own homes, and were stock-piling weapons.. Indy is as far away from something like that as can be. If any of you reading this even own a gun (lawfully -- I'm not saying owning a gnu is wrong), then you are already closer to Waco yourselves than anyone living in any of those places Dennis has mentioned. You're an evil "spiritual viper" Dennis... The very words from your lips are poison, shealthed in relgious-speak and candy coated by your spewing of "scriptures" (as satan was so prone to do, even to Jesus.) You know, in corporate America, Dennis would be sued and financially ruined for life if he said something like what he just said about Indy (comparing them to "Waco") aimed at a corporate leader or company. My own Fortune 100 company this year has fired and sued employees who got off on Google Groups and ran their mouths about the president and all kinds of false garbage about him and the company -- where he "lives," what he "does," how much "money he makes," what he "drives" -- like people have done here to Mike. But in America, where there is "religious freedom" -- anyone can spout off and run their mouths with absolutely no consequences like what some of my fellow (and very unscrupulous) employees just did (and they have paid dearly for it). If we were under the same "rules of engagement" here, this thread would have ended after about the 5th posting and someone would have told "maleman" where to get off. But again, because people here know we aren't playing by the same rules my Fortune 100 company can, then they continue to spew their vomit here without consequence, and they know that they can which is exactly why this continues to go on and on and on. And it's sickening (to say the least.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 3:08 am:

There will come a day, Dennis, unless you repent, where you too will pay dearly, as Jude makes clear. I am obligated to say that at this point. I don't want to stand before Jesus one day and say that after you spewed the vomit you just spewed that "Lord, I said absolutely nothing to him by way of warning or anything else." And don't go getting all "bent out of shape" at the strong words and language I use here. I have every right to warn people here of the kind of person you are as you do "presuming" to do the "same thing," but in a very false and slanderous way. These things, if we were able to place ourselves (everyone in here) in the position of having a fair hearing on these evil accusations -- with witnesses and evidence presented -- would bear themselves out, and you all would be absolutely horrified to see the evil twisting that comes from Dennis' mouth to compare these people the way he has here (as well as to find out a lot more about Mr. Dennis' life that he is presently hiding and denying from you all and from which he is still, even now, being protected from.) Now THAT is worth warning people about, which is ALL that that "risk" article is talking about on the AllAtHisFeet site. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 3:42 am:

PS. Go to Google Images and look up images of Koresh and the Waco compound and then go to the AllAtHisFeet web site and look at the plethora of pictures, slideshows, and videos there of the church and the people there, compare the two, and see if that looks anything at like a "Waco in the making" to you... And then consider what kind of a person Dennis is for even suggesting such a thing... I can't say enough about how evil Dennis is for saying something like this. -co :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 4:38 am:

DanRepentRepent: Been gone for a while, so I'm reaching back a bit to your last post, but a couple of quick hits, again to deflect the "slight of hand" for readers at home: (1) The fact that you called Cherie and Linda "pastors" is clear enough information (and all the "research" I would need to do) to know you were not truly a part of the church in Columbus. No one who is a part of the church there would call them that. They may be "older sisters" in Christ who lead the younger by the example of their lives (Titus 2), but they are not by any means "pastors" in the sense in which you mean it. This is from your outside observation while you were in that city regardless of what you think or how you "claim" it was. So, no, that's wrong (in response to your "Oh yeah, that's right, there are women pastors there", which again, even if they were, what's your point, Tim, with the "that's right folks, they have women pastors" exclamation, as if something were "wrong," when tons of other churches do too?????? But they are not that...) (2) Just because someone (eg. your wife) was "baptised" somewhere doesn't make her or you a "member" of any particular group by "hot tub" association. See, again, you're confusing how they function there with how a lot of churches function which, if you just show up "somewhere" then you are a "member." It wasn't that way in the 1st century. Ask Ananias and Sapharah about that. Keen "outside observation" and "being somewhere in proximity" don't make you a part of the church Jesus is building, be it in Columbus, here where I am, or in Africa, or Timbuktu... (3) On the web sites you mentioned, you only confirmed with your short list what I orignally stated. You state on your "cult" web site that there is "an explosion of web sites going up" on Indy, and my point then and my point now is that with the exception of the Dave Norris site (Spiritual Pathways Ministries), all those other sites were created by people here in this forum. The point, Tim, is to indicate that it's the cabal in here 100% responsible for those sites (again with the Norris exception -- IFAC doesn't have any articles that I could readily find, though there may be some, but they are clearly not dedicated to "Indy" -- they have TONS of articles on Moonies, Mormons and JWs that make up 99% of their site, so this is a misrepresentation on your part, which is precisely my point.) You would think if Indy is so "evil" (and IFAC is fielding "so many phone calls") that someone, somewhere, completely independantly of anyone in here, would be doing the same. The point, again Tim, is that the so-called "plethora" of web sites are being generated by people here. And don't anyone for a minute think that if a "bunch of sites" do "suddenly" go up, that Mr. Tim Dennis, Dennis Elslager, Cult_Fighter and others in here won't be behind it somehow. Such is the "web of darkness" and coversion in here. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Saturday, September 16, 2006 - 2:30 pm:

Just poked my head back in here long enough to see Dennis vomiting again (but haven't read the whole thing since I don't have time right now) and to catch the word "persecution" in his writing. Let me make this very, very clear to EVERYONE here, reading at home or otherwise: I DON'T, AND NO ONE I KNOW FEELS THAT HE IS BEING PERSECUTED HERE. That's what's happening to real Christians in China and other places. Now THAT's persecution. No one here feels that way nor has ever, ever uttered that word here (go back and look at every post I have made, Dan, Mike, Dave, Sigh or anyone else here writing in defense was said -- that word was never, ever used by us, though certainly very "suggestively" by Dennis Elslager and Co.). Again, this is a prime example of Dennis' evil spiritual terrorism where he plants the idea in innocent people's mind by using a certain word and attributing it to them when they never said that. Real persecution is in a class all by itself, and that is not happening here. Instead we'll all just standing knee deep in the slanderous, vile vomit that Dennis and others here with him are spewing. It stinks pretty profusely, but hey, that's life in the FactNet lane... Dennis simply wants to find a way to "frame" people here so that somehow they can be "squeezed" into the "10 Things That Define A Cult" checklist he has so he can check that one off the list, and no one here has ever SAID that nor actually FEELS that way. (I'll be demonstrating the utter falacy of such a "list" -- applied to EVERY situation, not just "Indy" -- at some point, but not right now.) Sorry Dennis... We don't feel so "persecuted" as you think we do (or want others to believe we feel). -ChrisO (Message edited by wirklichmir on September 16, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 12:08 am:

Jen: That's just flatly ridiculous to use that MP3 as "an example" of "what you mean." You can only do that assuming that you and others here are right, which you most definitely are not. Period. You only think that you are. (And by this, I would never say that they in Indy and Mike are without faults or sins -- just that the ACCUSATIONS here and the way of viewing things as well as how you've brought them -- COMPLETELY unbiblically and with this crazen "angry lynch mob" mentality and display -- as I've already pointed out by the crazy "lighthouse attack syndrome" is what is "off.") You and I both don't know what that situation was on the tape that Mike was talking about and he never detailed it, so it's foolish and childish to say what you said. And, no I'm not going to play "tit for tat" with you either, but again, in a court of law (since it was mentioned), there would be at last 25 people if not more that would be able to testify that I did know and observe your husband on multiple occasions. So stop with all the "court of law" bluffing. I'd give anything to put this all in a situation where a fair hearing could be done (which eventually it will be as I've pointed out), but again, everyone here knows that's not going to happen in a US court, so that's why all the smoke is being blown by Dennis, Tim Dennis, and others here. If it were my word against Dennis', that'd be one thing, but I would be able to call between 25-250 witnesses to the stand that could place me in the same room with Dennis on multiple occasions where I heard Dennis and the things out of his mouth as well as the way he carried and presented himself. Again, the problem from you guy's totaly illogical, unbiblical, irreverent, unsustainable point of view is that 5 weeks in Indy makes Dennis an absolute "world expert" on "Indy" and "Mike" and yet anyone that was there at the same time "doesn't know" Dennis. Now that doesn't even make any sense, now does it? I think I would actually have to come to your defense in the courtroom (seriously!!) and ask people not to laugh openly at you if you were to be so self-deceived as to offer that as valid logic and testimony on the witness stand, because you would be utterly laughed at to suggest such a thing. I don't know that the judge or the defense or even your own prosecution would be able to keep a straight face hearing that. But again, that utterly ridiculous premise is the very premise on which these insidious accusations in this forum are made. And, "how long" you have known Dennis does not in any way invalidate anyone else's exposure to him. You would have to work a lot harder than you are now to convince a jury that you could be relied upon as a valid witness to Dennis' character -- regardless of how much time you've known him (and I completely believe you that your TIME SPAN is indisputable... seriously!) -- since your over-zealous, over compulsion to protect him no matter what to the point you would be considered blind to his faults is very, very, very obvious and would be to a pagan court. I promise you that. I've commended you for it in the past, but it wouldn't stand in a court of law. You would be considered unreliable, "subjective testimony" based on the way you rush to his defense here with unsustainable and obvious lack of objective logic. I'm not trying to be mean, but it just makes absolutely no sense. Especially when I could call on such a large body of witnesses. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 12:36 am:

On the "persecution" thing: While the "risk" article under consideration apparently does use the word "persecution," I can at least speak for myself and re-iterate that I personally do not feel persecuted, nor have I ever, ever used that word to describe what is going on in here. Also... The fact that the church in Indy used that word does not in any way prove that they used that word to describe what is going on in here right now. I know everyone here is just so utterly convinced that the entire world revolves around this teenie-tiny little piece of cyberspace, and that every thing written must by default refer to "this forum." You guys in here are like the person who walks into a room of people whispering, and due to massive pride, arrogance and self-deception, automatically assumes that all the "whispering" must be about HIM. What is going on in here is certainly a PREDECESSOR to real persecution and in that sense, it makes sense to warn others, as that "risk" article does. Certainly the sentiments of the Chinese authorities who physically torture as well as many radical Islamics who blow people to smithereans run very, very, very close to the same sentiments in this forum -- the vindictive attitudes, prideful arrogance and entitlement, and false accusations, word twisting and other things. So there is some comparision there which would warrant someone being warned in advance where these things ultimately lead. (Funny that Dennis should talk about "where things ultimately lead," now isn't it???) So while this is not yet true persecution, since the attitudes of those who do persecute match those who write in here, what's the difference??? So they used a word to warn others of what IS going to happen by Jesus' decree, so I don't see a big deal there. Where in the world is real persecution ever born if not on the thought wings of people like in this fourm. Go look at Lenin, or Hitler, or Mao, or Stalin or Bin Laden's early life. Or the early thought and written life of anyone persecuting today. At one time, it was just an "ideaology" that they later, when given the opportunity and LEGAL means to carry out their hate -- DID. So if Nick used it in an email, then I would consider it a bit overstated for now, maybe. (But considering all the other twists on this written from Indy in here, who knows what Nick actually wrote or meant????) I don't feel that way now. But we all know where this sort of thing leads to, so maybe Nick knows a lot more than any of us in here are letting on, hmmmmmm????? :-( -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 12:56 am:

DanRepentRepent writes: You are right about the persecution thing. ChrisO is not "apart" (sic?) of the church so he doesn't know. (THIS IS UNCONFIRMED) No, confirmed. I am writing here again confirming this, Tim. I'm not sure what the big deal is here. I have not lived in Indianapolis in over 3 years. I live almost 1000 miles away from them. I am not there. I am not presently a part of the church there. BUT.... To answer first_truth's assertion (false accusation -- AGAIN) that I "haven't been involved in more than a decade" -- that is COMPLETELY erronous. Now maybe HE hasn't been (funny... I haven't yet heard your REAL NAME yet, Mr. First "Truth"???? And I wonder why????), and so he "assumes" that I haven't, and he just makes these "assumptions" based on my "move in" and "move out" dates, but actually while living outside that city, I have been very involved with them as I've already indicated in previous writings where I was given opportunities to live with and work with, side by side, other people we knew in previous relationships. And I've already stated that these are dear friends of mine, some of whom I've known for 30 years -- went to college with, lived with, cried with, labored with (a lot of that was by them in my direction, but it's been mutual.) You know, maybe the only experiences you guys, sadly, are accquainted with are "silly church friends" (as Cult_Fighter so revealingly "put it"), but these are life-long friends, and while I don't overlook their faults -- they have expressed as many of their own to me -- I didn't just leave them when I "moved my furniture" from one part of the country to another. So maybe that'll clear all that up (again). But.... likely not. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 1:39 pm:

I guess if the airlines kept hiring blind pilots to fly their planes, while we all might know the crashes were imminent, we would never really be able to hide ourselves from the shock and recoil we we feel over each crash. That's how your constant table-turning and one-way, self-redeeming "logic" strikes me Jen. It utterly amazes me each time... I'm "extremely preoccupied" with Denny? When I only respond to the wicked, spiritually perverted stuff he writes; I've never, that I recall, ever initiated a statement directed at him unsolicited. And no one in here is "extremely pre-occupied" Indy, Columbus, or Mike Peters??? This absolute witch hunt is somehow NOT being "extremely pre-occupied" on your parts??? It's utterly amazing, Jen, your skewed, twisted and self-satisfying perspective, it really is. Maybe the 5-6 of you guys banded together in here and slandering Mike with manufactured stories, insults, and innuendos could do something biblical, since Mike is such a "spiritual stench" and so "opposed to the ways of God," and swear on an oath that you won't eat another bite of food again until Mike is dead. Your attitudes, perspectives and approaches certainly do strike me in the same way as those guys. Maybe this would be a great plan of attack for you all. Again, since Mike is the same kind of "stench" those guys were "smelling"... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 2:21 pm:

You know, Cult_Fighter... Let me just be real frank with you. Last time you went on and on and on trying to "goad" me into answering questions that were none of your business, I just ignored you because (1) it wasn't any of your business, and (2) because you wouldn't believe what I wrote (and still don't) anyway. Now on this next topic of "goading" over this supposed "withholding of affection" thing, I already told you it IS "indefensible" HERE IN THIS FORUM. Nothing I nor anyone else has ever "offered" by way of "explanation" has ever "sufficed" to satisfy you or anyone else in here (since this isn't about Truth, but only your "version" of it), and instead has only turned into more twisted and perverted fuel for the fires in here. And since Jen's already informed me of how "awful" I appear to everyone else, I guess I loose nothing to just tell you that you are spiritually blind (to MANY things, not just this one issue), don't understand, can't comprehend, and are completely unable to accurately determine, weigh and righteously judge the validity of this as well as many other things. Not mention the fact that this "issue" is being COMPLETELY, 100% mis-represented here (and so it can't even be "answered" in the way it's presented since it doesn't exist in the way you twist and portray it.) So...... It's not going to be "explained" to you. The stuff you think you "see" and "know," you've "lifted" or been "told" and is completely misrepresented here. And this whole thing, going on three months now, is proof positive that this forum isn't the place where the spiritual concepts that you don't understand (nor agree with) are going to be sorted out. So, I'll just save you and everyone else here a lot of "goading" time. It's not that God hasn't made it clear that we are not free to continue placing our ever so looooovvvvving arms around anyone who wants to keep openly sinning and re-crucifying Christ over and over again with their lives while still calling him or herself "a Christian" -- as if we all are just so much more loooooooving and understaaaaaaanding that Jesus himself... It's that you don't understand or believe that that would be the case or that anyone who does actually love and want to obey Jesus should find some creative way to do that such that the person under consideration is still actually loved, but their determination to continue sinning isn't still "coddled" by some "spiritual precept" (that doesn't exist anywhere in scripture!!!) that God is IMPOTENT to rule in situations where two people (one of which has determined to openly defy God by his/her life by obvious "acts of the sinful nature" as Paul put it) in "marriage."

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 2:23 pm:

Do we need to go through a bunch of scriptures again, like I did once, where we would have to quote half the NT whenever dealing with sin is mentioned and add the "tagline" (as you all advocate here)... "But don't feel a need to obey what I just said if that person who is sinning is married to you. In that case, just keep it hidden, don't talk about it or try to help or take what I just said seriously because the 'marriage vows' automatically trump whatever I, as a holy God, may feel concerning Holiness and sin. Just ignore it, don't do anything about what you see as obvious if you are married to a person, saith the Lord." That's pretty much what is being advocated in here. Now again, to go any deeper into any of that is just going to be something you won't understand. Not because you are so "stupid" -- I'm by no means saying anything that (and don't think you are). But because you're mind is already made up, dude. And spiritually speaking, when people already have their minds made up -- when God himself is judged and called out on the carpet like you and others in here are doing, preaching "another gospel" that doesn't exist (except in your own mind) -- it's spiritually paralyzing, dude. It just is. That's what Jesus said. Discerning spiritual truth has nothing to do with intellect, but has to do with a heart that has been opened to Truth inspite of so-called "human sensibilities" and the cost involved. So since no "explanation" in here is going to suffice for you, none will be given. You're mind is made up (as well as the 5-6 others who keep "popping up" in here.) You think you "understand" (when you don't), and so it's pointless. Now go and believe whatever you want to believe. Especially since that's what you are going to do anyway and since what is presented here and being called on the carpet doesn't exist the way you have portrayed it as "happening" in Indianapolis and other places anyway. This continues to be a "witch hunt" and slander site (the very way in which you bring your accusation and "demands" on this "issue" is proof enough of that), and is not a forum where Truth can be gained, worked out, or discerned. It's absolutely amazing (again) that I would be accused of "ignoring" you or "side stepping" the issue when the real problem here is that..... you can't hear the answer. :-( -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 2:31 pm:

PS. This by the way is part of that "terrible step" that Amazed_One seems to me to be talking about. Taking that "terrible step" from the standpoint of the awe and reverent fear we have of God to obey Him -- no matter what the "situation" or "cost" -- and trust Him that it's all going to work out in the end if we will just simply do what He says and stop making ridiculous excuses (and new "gospels -- go read what God had to say about "new gospels" in Galatians 1) and honor Him and the person under consideration (see, this kind of obedience is "portrayed" here as "so unloving"). Do what God said, in love, by taking sin seriously if you see it ("if" -- not "when" as the scriptures are clear), and let the chips fall where they may. Now that's what Amazed_One seems to be talking about. (I have no idea who Amazed_One is by the way; I say that for his/her sake since he/she is likely to be accusationally "associated" with me after saying all this, but what he/she said is true. Trust God and let the chips fall where they may.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 2:42 pm:

Another little "side note" on the "withholding affections" in "marriages" thing... Isn't it just absolutely amazing that in a marriage situation, if the sin is AGAINST US (like marital infidelity, adultery, etc.) we (Christendom in general) are just so, so, so quick to see it, identify it (correctly), respond to it, confront it, and do something about it (often ending in the separation and divorce that everyone in here is so "freaked out" over), but when the sin is against GOD and maybe of a type that doesn't threaten US (and all our physical "marriage benefits") so much, but IS an affront to the "marriage/wedding" vows we made to God, then it's "okay" to just "overlook" it and do nothing about it. So we prove that we are prostitutes before God in our vows to Him, and that our "physical benefits" in marriage are more important than anything we've vowed to Him. Now that's just absolutely amazing isn't it??? And all that is happening in Indy is just raising the awareness of all of what I just wrote and NOT what and how it's being "portrayed" here. And you wonder why Jesus was so "ugly" and called some people "blind guides..." Because our "American traditions" NULLIFY the Word of God. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 3:20 pm:

GetAGrip, One "solution" would be to just close the forum on the basis of the fact that this is free country and people can believe whatever they WANT to believe... I think for anyone objective at all, it can be clearly seen that we didn't start this (maleman did and then a couple of so-called "cult experts" that jumped in and shared that newspaper article that started this fire) and Indy has ALWAYS advocated that if THEY want to believe what they want to believe about stuff -- FINE. Let 'em. I just wrote something like that. But no, this is about someone that circled back after 12 years of being LEFT ALONE to believe whatever he wanted to believe (as well as other people under consideration here who were LEFT ALONE) and what is being PRESSED on people here (ironically again, they are GUILTY of what they accuse others of) is WHAT THEY BELIEVE. Now this is a free country, and if they don't believe what is written on the AllAtHisFeet site, FINE. They are free to disbelieve it. THEY are the ones in here PRESSING everyone else to see it THEIR WAY. Indy has been around for 20 years and has NEVER, EVER pressed their "views" on ANYONE. Everyone is free to believe whateveer they want to believe. If you don't believe what they believe there, then everyone is free to go their own way and that is all that has been done or suggested in 20 years there. (That is, they are being VILLIFIED for doing just that -- LEAVING PEOPLE ALONE to do and believe WHATEVER THEY WANT TO BELIEVE.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 3:22 pm:

I personally have never, ever operated in any other way, which I believe is very much like Jesus. He spoke, and if people didn't agree with them, He LEFT THEM alone and let them believe whatever they wanted to believe. This is also my point on 1st century cults and why no apostle or early Christian EVER took up the pen against even the real dozen or so cults in their day -- because people should be left to believe whatever they want to believe (and belief in a cult is no better or worse than belief in the "cult" of "skiing" or "arts and crafts" or any OTHER thing someone might get "mixed up in" as a SUBSTITUTE for the Jesus Christ of God being their all in all.) I just told Cult_Fighter if he wants to believe something different on the "withholding affections" thing -- FINE. DO IT. But it's THEIR VIEWS in here that are being pressed and that they are trying to press on other people in this forum. Again, it's a free country, and if they want to believe something else... FINE. LET 'EM. No one is going to try and change their minds and in 20 years no one has EVER been pursued, messed with, slandered or otherwise maligned like what is being done here by them to this church. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, September 18, 2006 - 3:40 pm:

PS. Even the people at IFAC, as far as I know, at least operate the way I have described above -- it's a free country and everyone can believe what they want to believe. I went out to the IFAC site and couldn't find a SINGLE article on "Indy." They respond to people who contact THEM, and while I don't agree with what they may respond with, they still have a right to their own PRIVATE VIEWS and even THEY have NEVER done anything like what is doing done in this fourm, nor done the dark, evil clandestine behind-the-scenes recruiting and advocating, and behind-the-scenes email writing, phone call solicitation and other "witch hunt" tactics that I know the dark, dark people in here have been doing. At least the IFAC operates under some form of integrity like this, I will have to say, as far as I know. The two people running that org. have their own site, and they respond to people who call THEM, both of which they have EVERY RIGHT TO DO, but they are NOT out PRESSING THEIR VIEWS like the dark, vile people in the cabal on this forum, I have to say, in spite of disagreeing with IFAC, and I respect THAT. I don't mind taking up for someone that I don't even agree with if it's TRUE, and as far as I know, this is TRUE of even them. But it's NOT true of the people in here. (Note also that the people at the IFAC have never even jumped IN here, again another tribute to them. They have their OWN views which were and are being kept PRIVATE unless spoken to or asked and not plastered as slander all over a bunch of public internet boards.) -co

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:07 am:

In reference to the link above: He met someone through a book and an email???? C'mon Tim Dennis, this is a reach and a real stretch (and a real stench) not to mention this is just as wicked as the day is long. Just like others here who post regularly and have never even met Mike in person, this is really, really stretching it. Another anonymous pot shot from the dark. Not to mention again, this is totally unbiblical and wicked to have someone bring testimony against someone else when (1) it's not face to face, and (2) we don't even know who this "Chris" is... Either come into the Light or continue "building (concocting) your case" outside the confines of holy scripture. Just who is the "sheep in wolves clothing" here??? -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 3:17 am:

Jen: No actually, I didn't miss that part, but I am, again, missing the part about how he knows Mike though a book and through email. I'm "just curious" how again (your glaringly selfish and sinful double-standards, again Jen) you go BALLISTIC when you think someone couldn't possibly "know Denny" when that person has been in the same room with him many times over a 5 week period, but when someone says they "met Mike" though a BOOK (how does that even work????), then it's totally like "what's the problem??" Are you really that blind and full of pride and arrogance Jen to "overlook" that??? Yes, you are... I'm also "just curious" how you don't see this as "false testimony" and "bearing false witness"??? I don't care if he said he met Bill Clinton or Tom Peters "through one of his books" -- it's categorically ridiculous and it's trying to paint a picture that isn't true. It's false testimony and false witness. Period. So now you can add "Bill Clinton" and "Tom Peters" (no relation to Mike) to the list of people I'm "overly sensitive" about... :-( -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:36 pm:

Jen wrote: I have seen ChrisO repeatedly calling people names and making foul accusations. Jen, while I make no excuses for things which may be blatantly not like Jesus, I'm not convinced people in here know Jesus well enough to point that out, and yet even then, I do and will consider those things which are directed at me. I have been admonished gently by others to stay calm and to not make accusations myself, but... I don't believe calling you all prideful, deceitful, evil, satanic or any of those other things fall into that category because that is in fact what you are guys are at this point and have been up to. The way this has all played out is categorically outside of the way God said to do it, and yet you insist upon it, which is open rebellion, whether you see it that way or not. Not to mention the "testimonies" and other things brought here are falsified, trumped up, twisted or otherwise mangled and contorted (purposefully). I have actually had a number of private emails (by the way -- not one single one of the accusers here has ever written me privately -- and I'm not necessarily encouraging that unless you take on an entirely new attitude that is more workable than here), and those persons have been able to point out some things that I happen to agree with, and do struggle with. I don't even agree 100% with everything that has been said to me privately, but... It's been far, far, far, far more workable (and biblical -- funny how those two things go together) and those persons still have an open door into letting me know how they feel and what I might be doing that maybe isn't necessarily the highest way. (And those people by the way are NOT from Indianapolis or Columbus... Far from it. Most "don't agree" with them either, but they have taken a biblical approach, which if this had started that way -- going all the way back to maleman -- then none of this would likely have happened.) I know you "view" some of the things I have said as accusational, but Jen (and others), you all, again full of pride and arrogance and pompous entitlement here, can't for the life of you see how you treat everyone associated with Indianapolis and Columbus with complete duplicity and evil, wicked, self-serving double-standards. It's completely ironic that most if not all of what you accuse the people of there, and especially Mike (and YOU GUYS are the ones highlighting and who started highlighting him, not me) are the very things in here you guys are guilty of either in this forum, or from what we know of you all personally (that wouldn't include you as far as having seen you personally.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:38 pm:

I've been in here a long time -- longer than Dan -- and it does tend to "work on one" a little bit and so some things may have been "jumped on" a little bit harder than they should have. An example: Taking exception to Chris' testimony that he "met Mike" through a book. Now while I'm still a little prone and feel there is some truth to the fact that you guys are going to take whatever you can get your hands on and stretch and twist and massage it into something that "sounds awful" if you possibly can (especially if you can attach "Mike's name" to it, and I still feel that was somewhat intended even then), it was probably wrong to jump in it as I did because frankly I believe I could claim, legitimately, to have gotten to know you (Jen) here by your writings. So again, if we're going to talk about "double standards" here, of which this board is absolutely RIFE with, then I think maybe I need to back down from that one a little bit. That sounds like a bit of a double standard to me, and I can't claim to have gotten to know you a little bit here and then deny that Chris could have "met Mike" in a similar way. And there could be other things like that, but again I doubt you all will take any responsibility for placing me and others in the position of feeling attacked, slandered, verbally murdered (which is what gossip is and why it's listed in the same breath in the scriptures), blantantly lied about, and other hidieously evil and twisted things (innuendos, etc.) I told you all I've been in most of these situations PERSONALLY and personally know most of the people in here including many of you all posting. And I KNOW FOR A FACT, as Dan has already pointed out that most if not all of it is out and out lies and trumped up twisted garbage (which is being denied or misrepresented in GROSS fashion here.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:39 pm:

And it has been painful to read the "rap sheets" of people like Tim Sz, whom I have met (physically) and found to be very personable. Well, Jen... What in the WORLD do you THINK, huh???? Of course he's "warm and personable"... Do you think that people who are sinning like this are easy to spot and come to your front door with fangs and drool hanging out all over the place??? That's the whole point with someone like Tim Szaz and others like him...!!! That's what we're trying to express here and no one will listen and already have their "minds made up" and are "taken in" by people like Tim and others (perhaps providing you with "what your itching ears want to hear???") Since we've already mentioned Adolph Hitler, did you know that Adolph Hitler was one of the most "warm and personable" men you would ever met??? (Unless you were Jewish of course, which again, the double-standard since there seems to be some indication anyway that he had Jewish ancestery, knew about it, and this "warm and personal person" had an entire town leveled to the ground specifically to hide and destroy the records exposing that.) He absolutely doted on his grandchildren, staff and direct reports as well as their wifes. Absolutely insisted on helping them with their marriages, and demanded that Joseph Gobbels as well as others on his staff love their wives, stop all their fighting and marital "spats," curb back on their adultery and fornication, and other "admirable, moral" things. All the while sending millions and millions of others to the gas chambers, including his own country men who dissented with him. Now do you think, Jen, that it is at all possible for someone to seem "very warm and personable" and still be wicked to the core??? You know, that's what MY Bible says in Romans, and when it comes right down to it, that is really what this ENTIRE THREAD is ALL ABOUT. It's the story of some people who see/saw through these things, by the grace of God, FIRST BY SEEING IT IN THEMSELVES!!! and then by realizing the same foul, evil, core of wicked sin is in ALL of us and then not being "duped" by people who present themselves as "warm and personable" (and basically "good" so "get out of my face and leave me alone!!" when you barely try to help or present them with a clear view of themselves which is in summary what the ENTIRE BIBLE from Genesis to Revelation is trying to tell us!!) And for the people who believe they are "basically good" and only have done certain things "once or twice" (that's not a veiled comment about anyone in particular, but a general statement about us all), and want to be left alone to feel that way, then we have done that. We've suggested that. THat's all that's happened here and in the "situations" being "reported" (contorted?) here.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 1:41 pm:

I'm not trying to be hard on you Jen, but if you can't see that in Tim and others around you then very likely you can't see it in yourself either. And that more than anything is probably why you and I are "butting heads" all the time. The very fact that you think "Tim is very warm and personable" and therefore he's "okay" -- when Hitler and every evil despot who every lived was that way with only certain people (the people who "agreed" with them and could contribute to their selfish and diabolical ends [so they were using people]) -- is exactly why all this is going on here when we boil it all down. It's not that I have anything against Tim personally. I've lived with Tim in 2 different cities and states and stayed in his home when he lived in Columbus. I know his children and his wife. There's alot to "like" about Tim and I still care for him, but not while he's treating Cathy and his dear children the way he IS treating them whether you believe it or not, and most ESPECIALLY whether or not you hear it from him, someone who is treating his own household like some evil despot. Not to go on and on, but did you know there are still some Germans living today that take exception to the way Hitler is viewed because of the way he personally "treated them"???? Can you imagaine??? Do you even realize how susceptible your flesh is to how you are treated and how you can be "smoothed over" and flattered and "won over"???? That's why I write what I write, Jen, because it's absolutely sickening to see and hear. I don't have anything against you personally, but I do have something personally against the "Hitler complex" in us all and especially those who have "won you all over" by their smooth words and fine sounding arguments as Paul said. Think about it Jen... -ChrisO PS. Jude himself has very, very, very strong words to say about people who "speak abusively against things they don't understand", so, I'm sorry... Until it looks to me like you all have repented of your "abusive speak" here, as Dan has also suggested -- all the blantant lying, twisted and trumped up "charges", slander, insinuations, innuendos, veiled threats, behind-the-scenes, clandestine "recruiting" and other dark world tactics Dan unveiled here (which I already knew about) -- as long as you all are participating in those and/or condone those who do, then you guys are still evil and "spiritual vipers." Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, Timothy, Jude, James and other early christians had no problems calling out people that who were doing those things using those kinds of words. Notice that I didn't start out in here that way, but as it has become more and more apparent you all intended to continue on the courses you all have taken, when we SEE AND ALREADY KNOW THE TRUTH in things like what Dan just wrote about Tim Dennis, then I feel compeled to call you as you are. I told you guys a long, long, long time ago, we aren't "stupid" and while I know know one has "said" that, you certainly have treated us that way. That's not an issue of "hurting our feelings" -- it's simply an issue that you don't know what you are talking about, and we gave you that grace early on. As the facts have come out, it's turned into something far worse and diabolical then just "not knowing" -- you guys DO know and yet you all insist on this course and it cannot be simply ignored.... -co

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 2:01 pm:

"Theophilus": I find it a little disturbing why in all of five years, your church who is supposed to represent Christ on earth, the dispenser of grace and friend of sinners - why it would never even occur to you to invite him and if you actually did, why only one time? Welcome to the "house of mirrors." A perfect example of why trying to "sort things out" in this fashion is completely contrary to the Word of God and why it ends up being a bigger mess -- and turns into something evil -- than doing it God's way. (Like, maybe you should be asking Dan that, as he asked you to do, and as GOD asked you to do -- incidently "Theophilus" means "lover of God" which would mean you would also "love his ways" as David said, but I rather think you guys actually enjoy it the other way and just "doing it" here.) Again we see how the "rose colored glasses" in here automatically "paints" everything a certain way for you all. THE POINT Dan was trying to make is that Tim seemed incorporated enough and embroiled enough in his own life with his own other assembly (who asked Dan's group to help move Tim so that he could be a part of them -- another group), and so he was never invited but once. I run into people all the time who I am friends with, I've helped them with things, but I don't want to intrude on where they are with their current affiliation (in fact, my practice is to encourage them to be faithful where they are), and it "never occurs to me" to "invite them" into what I am doing. That's all Dan is saying. He's trying to help you all see that Tim was so very disassociated with anything Dan was doing (rather than lying about "being a part of the church there"), that it wasn't anything Dan really ever considered. He was only a "once met" accquaintance. That far removed and seemingly very involved somewhere else. THIS is what I'm talking about Theophilus... The double-standard of immediately jumping on anything anyone here writes in defense, judging it, and then "painting it" a certain way. When everyone jumps up and down and SCREAMS in here that people that have been living like little Hitler's in their household's "shouldn't be judged so harshly." Now Theophilus, this is also what Jude calls "Speaking abusively against things [you] don't understand" but instead JUDGE those things without doing things and investigating things God's way. Like Dan, I'd like to invite you back into that. Or.... You can continue as you are here (and have been doing in the past), and just worry about "how it all turns out" later. I wouldn't advise the later option.... :-( -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 3:28 pm:

Cult_Fighter "having fun" (I guess) writes: Now just who was it who was whining and complaining about Mike being compared to David Koresh? Oh yeah, it was Chris Olive! The very same guy who is now comparing Tim Szaz to Adolph Hitler! You know, all you guys in here are absolutely impossible. It's endless "controversies" and "arguments about words" as Paul said (and "splitting hairs" as GetAGRip recently wrote so appropriately), and this is exactly why you all have been left to live your lives any little 'ol' way you want. And you can't stand to do that without trying to drag others into your fray. Which is one of the reasons why no one from Indianapolis will get on here since this kind of stuff just sucks up time and energy from people. This kind of thing makes you guys "thieves and robbers" as Jesus said because not only do you come into the sheep fold by "another way" but you rob other people of time and energy that they could be spending on Jesus and on others, and this is exactly why Jesus said of the trees which "drank in the rain but bore no fruit" (eg. drank up all the resources around them and yet yielded NOTHING for God (but a lot of grief for a lot of people), he said "Pull it up and burn it in the fire!" It's an evil, evil, wicked thing to rob other people and Jesus Himself of that energy and adoration of which He is due. And this is, yes, why you are wicked Cult_Fighter. And a mocker of God. (And one who threatens man physically as well for what they believe.) To our readers at home: This endless controversy here is eaxctly why these people: Dennis, Cult_Figher, GottaPost, First_Truth, Tim Szaz, and others here were asked to leave. The constant energy drain in trying to argue and fuss and help and agonize over constant table-flipping, words, splitting hairs, defensiveness, light deflecting, and all the other day in and day out junk is too draining and wrong to do for people who want to live in the simplicity of the Life Jesus has called us all to. So these people were asked to leave (and then most of them were essentially paid to leave with thousands upon thousands of dollars -- that people in Indy and Columbus are still paying on on high interest credit cards) and go do what seemed best to them. You wanna constantly haggle here about words, analogies, stories, scriptures, meanings, interpretations, agendas, etc. and it's wrong. It robs people and in addition to being liars, verbal murders, and people with evil agendas, you are also robbers and thieves. Nobody has time for this.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 3:30 pm:

Now educate me, Chris. WHAT has been twisted or stretched about that? I've see the emails. Well, first of all, Cult_Fighter, I told you I wouldn't address it because the way it's painted here and pressed is not how those situations played out. Nearly everything else written here by way of accusation has been twisted, contorted, skewed, altered, trumped, embelished and falsified, so why not this as well??? If those reading at aren't in one of two camps right now, further explanation isn't going to salve that, so believe (and continue to slander) as you'd like. In fact, I find it very hard to believe or trust someone who happens to be in possession of so-called "private correspondance" from anyone. It seems awfully questionable to me how you are in possession of supposed "private emails" between other people. That certainly sounds a lot like a web of darkness and deceit, passing around private emails like that and without a doubt taking those emails out of context and "presenting" and "describing them" in just the way you want. And certainly, I doubt very seriously that permission was granted for that if somehow you are in possession of emails Mike sent to individuals -- I don't care WHAT the circumstance is. That's not a "cult" thing, Cult_Fighter... That's an ethical, integrity, and moral issue that many pagans would find troubling (and would find you in a courtroom with a pagan faster than you could blink an eye, because they at least understand better than people here the integrity issues involved in something like that.) But again, to the web of darkness and deceit in here, no line is thick enough to not be crossed, if it can possibly in any way be used to the pre-determined end...... -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, September 19, 2006 - 4:00 pm:

GottaPost writes: By the way, I wrote you three times and you never responded. You know, I'll be absolutely quick as lightening to jump all over something that is true if I know it to be, I don't care who it is. GottaPost is right. He did write me three times. I had forgotten about that. But it was certainly nothing that I felt I could or should answer since the messages he wrote were full of vile, suggestive, sickening, opinionated and grossly vindictive stuff about "Mike and women" -- full of "leading questions." (GottaPost has had these "opinions" for a long time, where he "snorts" a little incredulous "chuckle" when he doesn't agree with something, and rolls his eyes. He's always been a self-proclaimed "bastion of truth" standing on his own, and the very accusations he levels against Mike in this regard he is most definitely guilty of, even if Mike were guilty of the same things, which he is not.) So, I already told you guys, I'm not going to answer your vile accusations when it's simply your perverted "point of view" and the FACTS speak for themselves from my own personal first-hand observations. So... Chriso, do you ever think it is possible you may be wrong about Mike P for the same reasons you state about Tim Sz? No, I'm not wrong. And no one in here seems willing to stand down and consider maybe whether the way you guys "feel" about Tim Szaz and others could be wrong either, huh? That "double-standard" thing again. Because again, the person that needs to be kept in the "frying pan" right now, in your minds is "Mike Peters." All the lies, all the slander, all the innuendos, falsifications, trumped up charges, and everything else, and it's "Don't you think Mike could be wrong????" Wow. Amazing. No one's asking if Tim Dennis, who was just very eye-openingly revealed, could be "wrong" in setting up his vindictive "cult" web site or anyone else in here. It's always just "Mike P." No, I'm not wrong concerning the charges in here, GottaPost, and most especially not wrong about the things you have been "so sure of" all these years. (I'll stop just short of getting into detail here by simply saying no one here knows about "Islamic complications" you have with women and how you view and treat specific ones, though surely very "warm and personable" on the outside. Surely these issues in your life have absolutely nothing at all to do with how you form your opinions of "Mike and women," do they???) I've never said Mike was perfect and I've seen him in situations such as he's described in here himself (but that was rejected as "true" by everyone in here since again, it doesn't fit the evil, vile, trumped up charges and agendas in here...). But not the evil, vile, wicked accusations and slander. Which is what GottaPost wrote me about, so... no answer. I'm not going to answer vindictive, accusational people who already have their minds made up when they ask their "questions." -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 10:26 am:

With your known and proveable histories (of immorality, divorce, violence, prejudice against women, foul language, hatred, lies, and sinful vices) -- Your attempts to put up a "curtain" of foul smoke to frighten people into accepting your version of "church" will never prosper. People worldwide, proven by hundreds of continuing letters (those who have seen your stuff have been appalled at your hearts, tactics, and obvious lies) do not want the mediocrity and laodicean leaven that you offer them. Your lives and your religion are unBiblical and totally unlike Jesus - and your postings have only solidified the convictions of those who have seen your hearts and exposed lying. (You sing of "freedom from 'tyranny'" in here, but the way you conduct your own selves in here is *plainly* totalitarian.) And they don't want anything you have or are. Hallel-jah.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 7:47 am:

To those reading at home: Well, like the murderous Ringraths of the LOTR, this relentless evil just won't leave anyone alone or leave well enough alone. I thought I was "outta here" for a while, but considering the "7 Thesis" that was just

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on the rotting figless fig tree outside the camp for all to read and considering WHO posted it, I have to say something. This person apparently has come to the place, spiritually, where he "knows no bounds." I'll just take up a one of these accusations right now since I don't have time for a comprehensive expose on the lawlessness of "GottaPost." Believe me, it would take a lot of time... GottaPost vomits: 3. Selective application of [the] Matt 18 discipline process. Boy, that's a paradoxical and extremely ironic (and false) accusation coming from GottaPost. See, one of the reasons GottaPost was disfellowshiped (once) and then (later) asked to leave is because GottaPost had this propensity to "selectively apply" half the NT to his life. Can anyone see the strange irony in that? As I documented in my very, very first post, GottaPost, spiritually, was a nightmare to live with. In fact, with GottaPost it's actually impossible to try and apply Matthew 18, because he disputes anything and everything that anyone brings to him, so you actually cannot apply it with him. His prideful, arrogant, mocking, "I sit in the seat of Moses" elevation above everyone else, and his utter, complete, insistence on "having the final say" and "being the final and sole determiner of Truth" lead the church in Indianapolis to realize, this man would just not "stand down" on clear, simple teaching in the NT. We're talking about simple and obvious "acts of the sinful nature" as outlined in Galatians 5. Nothing "stretched" -- just simple stuff. Like... (You're the one in here pushing the envelope, GottaPost, and it's absolutely sickening. So I think some more details of your bent on lawless living and your own "selective application of scriptures" are necessary and called for since your insidiously evil post, again trying to paint the church in Indianapolis as "so evil" when YOU, YOU, YOU!!!! are the one with so many problems involving SPIRITUALLY LAWLESS BEHAVIOR!!! is an accusation that again, YOU are most guilty of. "Selective application" of most of the NT under the guise of "spiritual freedom" and "disputable matters," the former of which is also, ironically, outlined in Galatians, concerning those who use their "spiritual freedom" [so called] to DO evil as you have done and continue to do here... And we just didn't "give in to it," as it says there, is ALL that has happened. People simply not duped and manipulatiable by your own grossly "selective living and application of scripture.")

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 7:51 am:

Galatians 5:19: Discord - CONSTANT murmuring and setting yourself up as a prideful, all-knowing judge over everyone and creation of discord in yourself and those around you,attempting to love and labor with you. No one could nor still can "talk" to you about anything. There is always constant discord with you, as Paul says is an obvious (and boy was it ever) "flesh walker." Galatians 5:19: Jealousy and Selfish Ambition - You stated it yourself in one of your early posts, your "ambition" to "be a leader" while in Indianapolis. But no leader can be a leader without being subject to other leaders. Even Paul was subject to those around him and the church in Antioch. Even someone walking in Paul's stature isn't exempt from being yoked to and accountable and responsible to the other leaders around him. And as I stated in my first post: "You wanted to live how you wanted to live, be a leader but not be accountable to leaders..." Your jealousy and selfish ambition over certain people in Indianapolis was "obvious to all" as again Galatians 5 is clear and your actions most especially here bears that out, for in your continued jealousy and bitterness, you accused the church in Indianapolis, of the VERY things which EVERYONE WHO HAS EVER LIVED WITH YOU (not just in Indy, folks) has seen CLEARLY in your life. Galatioan 5:19: Fits of rage: This is a big one with GottaPost, I'm sorry to say. He's been known in many, many situations to "pop his cork" -- with unbelievers in stores, on public streets, with his children, and many, many times with his wife. Again, I've already detailed situations in previous posts where GottaPost stopped a car in the middle of the street and CURSED OUT the driver of the car IN FRONT OF HIS OWN CHILDREN and... the details I left out last time... was intent on provoking an all out fist fight with this person. Wow. Doesn't sound like "leadership material" to me. But again, any time someone wanted to apply scripture to GottaPost's life, it was "selectively applyable" or let's just say that somehow, it didn't apply. And this isn't just a "one time" deal, but GottaPost's propensity to "blow a gasket" was evidenced time and again in many situations. In stores, on basketball courts, you name it... It was semi-regular stuff. Galatians 5:19: Dissentions, factions, and envy: Similar stuff as above. With GottaPost's secret opinions and "selective application" of scripture to his life, dissentions and factions were caused. Doubts placed in people's minds about the genuineness of others, trust was broken down, etc.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 7:54 am:

All those things were OBVIOUS (as Paul writes) and witnessed MANY TIMES by MANY OTHERS in at least two cities where people lived with GottaPost. And again, the haughty pride, arrogance, and mocking that GottaPost would do... finally lead to MULTIPLE INSTANCES of some kind of "break up." Either he was disfellowshipped (once -- and he couldn't even be told "why" then because the whole issue was his constant pride and seeing himself as "better and more knowledgeable" than simple saints around him and DISPUTING ANYTHING and EVERYTHING BROUGHT TO HIM and "selectively applying" scriptures on simple stuff), then it was mentioned that maybe Indy wan't the best situation for him (why have him stay when he was so "unhappy" and disputed everything even with all the obvious junk??) and he moved out of Indy, and then another time -- now get this -- everyone just left HIM. (So instead of asking him to "leave," others "took the hit" and left so he wouldn't be inconvenienced or feel "pressured" by everyone else. I personally left a couple thousand dollars on the table to back out of buying a house next to him, and another family had a rough, rough time selling their home. But neither of us said a word to GottaPost... We "took the hit" and left GottaPost to be the "bastion of truth and selective scripture application" on his own.) And none of this even touches on how he treats is wife -- like some Islamic head of household tyrant. (You wouldn't believe the number of times I found his wife shattered for a day or two due to some overlord, iron-fisted, angry (sometimes explosive) way of treating her.) Or his children at times, or the fact that his manner of living in Indy was enough to gain the attention of the police at least once, or... We don't have time to detail all of GottaPost's acts of lawlessness here and his "choosiness of what scriptures apply to him and don't." The POINT is that he's accusing a church of that which he himself is MOST guilty of -- more than anyone I know, in fact -- and indeed has been so difficult to work with over the years (on multiple occasions with multiple chances graciously extended to him, believing he would change, with nothing "held against him" each time) that he absolutely placed that church in a position a lot of times where they couldn't even APPLY "Matthew 18." It was impossible. GottaPost disputed everything. And still does I see...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 7:59 am:

Now, before someone goes and accuses me that GottaPost says he "isn't who I think he is," remember that this board is CHALK FULL of lies and GottaPost has already already lied on multiple occasions on this board, this "7 Thesis" being only the latest. What's one more "little ol' lie" on his part?? And don't forget, you all choose this "fellowship of darkness," so you guys don't know whether he's lying or not. You don't know for a fact WHO this is to tell me "I don't know!!!" I KNOW WHO THIS IS. You guys can go getting all "bent out of shape" if you want, but even this cloak of darkness isn't enough to "hide" you all when there is plenty enough evidence to know who this is. Finally (and again, I know this will be "disputed" but that only goes to further cement and prove my point), "Matthew 18" is about a PROCESS and not a "recipe." There are no "recipes" in the NT anyway. Jesus didn't give us "recipes" -- He gave us a WAY. There is absolutely no indication anywhere in the NT outside of the gospels that the early church, when those times were exemplified in scriptures (Titus 3:10, 1Corinthians 5, 1Timothy 5, Acts 5, 3John, etc. etc.), "carried out Matthew 18" like some "judical procedure of the Sanhedrin" or something like that. Matthew 18 is about a PROCESS and is not some "Disfellowshiper's Bill of Rights." That's another "example" of JUST what we are talking about here -- someone being disciplined for obvious, multiple "acts of the sinful nature," pride, arrogance, entitlement, and then coming BACK to those discipling and "finding fault" with "how it's done." A rubber-stamping of exactly WHY they were doing it in the FIRST PLACE. Can anyone out there see that? (I'm not talking to the brood of vipers in here; of course they won't and can't.) That's all I have time for right now folks, but the other points in the "7 Thesis" are just as addressable and I'll get back to those later. I just felt that everyone out there needed to see the insidiousness and presumption with which GottaPost posts his vomit, when he is entirely guilty of the exact same thing over multiple passages of scripture, and placed that church in a position where they couldn't even carry out "Matthew 18." GottaPost was definitely, definitely NOT committed to nor open to that process in any way shape or form, and that's been at the core of his spiritual life for YEARS. So again, he was released to go and live however he wanted to live. As lawless as he wanted to.... :-( All of this is also very, very applicable to almost everyone else in here "dissenting" by the way, so the assertion and accusation is absolutely FALSE. Not to mention, as I stated about on the "process" versus "recipe" approach, that it doesn't "exist" that way ANYWAY. We can talk about the details of how some of these others "left" too if y'all want... Dennis "sneaking out of Dodge" (his choice entirely), etc.......... -ChrisO PS: You can see my very first posts of GottaPost, where a lot of this was already discussed, here: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=300548#POST300548

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 8:11 am:

Well, one more thing, since everyone in here loves trying to make absolutely, positively sure that "Mike Peters" has everything written apply to "him too"... On the thing with GottaPost wanting to "be a leader but not be accountable to other leaders" FACT... I can see right now where THAT is going to go. My personal observation when I lived there? And each time I lived there, I could throw a football and hit Mike's house, I was that close... Mike was and is accountable to all the other leaders there that I know about. I can name at least 6 men off the top of my head that he is accountable to and labors with, along side, as a brother. In fact, I don't know if I can remember the last time I saw Mike either alone or without one or more of these brothers in tow. To the readers at home, I can only give you my first hand accounting of what I saw when I was there. Of course, all that will be disputed, twisted and further slandered here, since the verdict is already made and the sentence already handed down, but hey... I'm just telling you want I've seen. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 1:03 pm:

A pertinent quote from another brother somewhere well outside of Indy/Columbus and not in any relationship with them at all (as far as I know): Now I want to tell you the last and cruellest of our deceptions –- it is our concern to be understood and to be perceived in the way we would like men to acknowledge us spiritually. And until we are blind to men, even to the ‘spiritual man’ that we think ourselves to be or who we desire to be known as, we cannot serve God... We must come to such a selflessness, such a mindlessness about this last man, this last cruel deceiver, who, after we have given up every other form, yet retains this kind of power by which we are traduced and compromised; the necessity to be understood by men in the way that we would wish ourselves to be seen and to be approved! We need to come to place where we see no man, even our own man, even our own seeing! That is why Paul could say, "Follow me as I follow Christ," without an iota of arrogance or audacity. Is it not we who think that he is arrogant because we project upon him the ego in which we still live, not having fallen on our face upon the ground upon which he had fallen, and been blinded by the light of God, which blinded him? You project on him your own idea of "man" and assume that he must mean by that some kind of egotistic statement because you cannot understand a man who sees no man, and in which the element of self is therefore not a factor. He does not have to be recognised, he can be despised, he can be cast out, he can be the offscouring of the world, without so much as blinking at it, for he sees no man. ...The cruellest delusion is to find ourselves in a lie about the very thing that is correct....

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, September 22, 2006 - 2:32 pm:

Tim, There is irony in your lives. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 11:13 pm:

To Readers At Home: A quick excerpt from the AllAtHisFeet web site, very relevant to this forum and with a few words and phrases I took the liberty of adding or bolding to apply it a little "closer to home" here...: We've somehow created this "wax museum Jesus" out there somewhere, where you wind Him up or you pull His string and He says things, but it doesn't mean anything. If anybody said any of those words today (eg. "hate your family members"), there would be people all over the world screaming, "Legalism, legalism!" But this IS Jesus. This is the only Jesus there is. And He's not being legalistic. And He is not a hard master. To that man, at that moment, there was no other Hope. Everyone's "one thing you lack" may be different. The "rich young ruler" had a problem with money addictions, apparently, rather than biological family addictions that Jesus said others would have to deal with. God is neither "anti-money," nor "anti-family relationships" -- if those issues are totally under His Lordship in all areas of obedience and affection and decision. Jesus is ANTI anything and everything that would cause a person to not instantly obey Him because their heart-strings and prejudices and comforts and pride are tied up in anything less than HIM, in this present fallen age. He is saying that if you don't live this way, then satan will get his hook in you and you will be uprooted. This isn't legalism. This is grace. "I'm giving you an opportunity. I'm extending My hand to you. I'm bringing Truth into your life that can set you free from the bondage of fear, self-indulgence, the fear of death, the fear of storms, the fear of poverty, the fear of sickness, the fear of loss of loved ones." And if you won't live this way, you will be uprooted. Because satan will find a way to destroy you. If you give him any targets that are uncovered by the grace and the knowledge of God, and a total commitment to Him, and death to self-life ("take up YOUR cross and come after Me" and "deny your very self" and "even unto death") -- if you give him any targets, satan will find you out and he will rip you off.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 11:16 pm:

This is not legalism! Jesus is not legalistic as some would quickly call Him if He was physically saying these things to them about areas of their lives they had held back from Him. Jesus is NOT legalistic when He says you must forsake your heart's affections and priorities other than HIM. He just knows how this "wicked and perverted generation" can deceive any man or woman or teen who thinks they can "have their cake, and eat it to" (as has been our experience, first-hand, with the dissenters here in this forum on more than one occasion -- why do think THEY "scream" as mentioned above?) It will, instead, eat THEM. Notice the language of Jesus -- not "legalism" but, "I am telling you that I know how this whole thing works! Hear Me! You can't grab for the world and your self life and desires and crutches and comforts, and not be eventually taken to My enemy's home. This is JESUS saying, "Don't build this tower without counting the cost. Don't go into this thing without knowing that it is going to cost you everything in order to make it all the way through." That's the nature of Christianity. "You can't follow me. You won't be able to continue to follow me without this." That's not legalism. He's saying you won't make it unless this is who you are and want to be. Anyone can sit in a pew, or living room (or on your oh-so-fine-sounding "blog"), and deceive themselves (and try and deceive everyone else) with pretty prayers and speeches and ideas (and blog entries full of "scriptures") and potluck dinners. But, a LIFE that isn't fully given to Him (which is fairly easy to spot, and some here haven't LIKED that!!!), with all of its affections and priorities, all of its time and resources and loves, consumed in HIS Purposes, rather than its own -- this person has or will fail. Thus saith the Lord. "This must be the quality of your decision to follow me--that you'll leave it all." (Posted without reading another single word here since I don't have the time for it right now.) -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, September 28, 2006 - 11:23 pm:

To Readers At Home On the silly little (but very wicked) accusation by GottaPost and Cult_Fighter (and Tim Szaz at one point) regarding the "Do Not Solicit" stickers that is being discussed in here in such a way as to make people in Indy look "weird"... The city I moved into last -- a city of about 50,000 residents, and a suburb of a major metropolitan area, considered an "alluential part of town" by some -- gives every single person who moves into this city the same kind of stickers which say pretty much the same thing to be affixed in our doors, if we choose. And I know of thousands of middle-class and affluent home owners associations all over this country that do the same thing. So... Not a "weird" thing by any stretch when city and urban planners all over the country think it's a good idea and that their residents just might want to exercise their legal right to do such a thing. Just one more example of how the evil people in here will go to any lengths to phrase and frame things in such a way as to get (demand? yep...) you to see things their way (or else they will pull their little ol' "we'll call you a cult!" guns out and try and terrorize you into seeing it their way -- notice how anyone is treated here who even dares to side with the accused in this forum.) Alrighty... That's all for now. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Monday, October 02, 2006 - 2:46 pm:

To Readers At Home: Only back for a bit since I'm working two jobs and just don't have the time right now to spin my wheels with the spiritual brood of vipers in here that just will not be deterred from the lynching in here, no matter what. (Someone mentioned how "we" are always right, and it's never dawned on them yet that the attitude on the part of the accusers in here represents exactly that, but I'm used to the "rules of engagement" in here and have been for a while. Nothing "sticks" the other way... But oh well. Real life goes on.) I dropped back in to point this out and see if it makes any sense to anyone out there (since it will not to anyone in here.) GottaPost pukes out: I've known Mike Peters for more than a decade I've never heard Mike offer one apology for anything -- that's not to suggest he never has, just that I've never heard it. (emphasis mine) And that my friends, is a prime example of the utter arrogance, pride, and pompous entitlement that is going on in here and has been going on in here for a long time. Can you imagine someone with the coothe to say something like that? That because he has never heard it, then it's never happened? That's arrogance to the max and the exact kind of arrogance I've been talking about and why most of the people in here were asked to leave. You can't live with or work with that kind of arrogance. That above all things defines slander -- when someone makes accusations about someone in the middle of admitted absence of proof. That's pride to the max, GottaPost, to assume that ANYONE needs to confess to YOU in order to prove that they do!!! That's what I mean when I say you accuse Mike of the very things you yourself are guilty of, even if he were as well. More later if and when I can get around to it. (As GetAGrip so aptly points out again, assuming I or anyone else is following this thread or investing alot in it at this point, is again ludicrious and arrogance to the max, as I've point out before. Just because there is "no answer" doesn't mean that there isn't AN answer. And as if anyone in here deserved to hear it??? Or even could really "hear" it??? Some of you mockers in here have been mocking God and the people in Indianapolis for YEARS... which is why you were left alone to go believe whatever you want to believe and live. Do you actually think you have the right to come back later and demand answers like this??? You were left to believe whatever you want to believe and will continue to be left to do so, just as Jesus did to those who didn't believe Him. Those that want to handle things God's way -- without the accusations and white KKK masks over your faces in here -- can write Indy and find out. Those with humble hearts are generally answered...) -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 11:31 pm:

"Cult_Fighter": Let me just say this for now and make this as clear as I can: YOU are the one in here DEMANDING and TELLING people "what to do." (Whereas Mike is accused of this, and to be honest with you all, Mike works so hard to make sure he's not telling ANYONE "what to do" that he's actually aggrevating sometimes. Here's a leader that should be "leading" and he won't "do it" the way people sometimes want him to -- THAT'S how hard he works to not TELL and DEMAND and I've never, ever seen him act the way people in here do EVER. Not even CLOSE.) I would sooner zip my mouth and allow the entire world to believe the accusations and out and out lies in here than to be goaded by your SATANIC DEMANDS into "answering" anything for you or anyone else in here. Again, let's make this one thing clear, clear, CLEAR: You, nor anyone else in here, represents any real AUTHORITY -- neither civil nor spiritual -- to be DEMANDING answers from ANYONE. You all have chosen your own ways, you were allowed to go the way you wanted in peace and you are in no position to demand ANYTHING. IS THAT CLEAR??? This is a public forum, and as long as I am not breaking the rules of this forum, I am free to post here when I want, how I want, and when I decide it's appropriate or not. The way you and others act in here -- coming in here DEMANDING answers is so decided unChristlike -- it defies description. And let me make this clear as well, so everyone understands (at least reading -- the spiritual snakes like yourself and others in here aren't likely to "get this", but...) that this has absolutely NOTHING to do with "Indy": I wouldn't care if this was the Mormon church you were accusing and slandering and DEMANDING your childish and evil, manipulative, arm-twisting "put up or shut up" answers from. This is America, people are free to choose and worship and believe whatever they WANT to believe. And to allow others to do so as well -- go their own way and believe whatever they WANT to believe without fear of reprisals, slander, bitter retribution, revenge (over not getting your way or nt understanding things), malcontent, abuse, and other forms of religious persecution as you ALL were allowed and encouraged to do. That's GOD'S view -- that's how Jesus operated, and that's our country's view. Clear?? Now: CAN IT with your insidiously evil and lying, insinuative demands.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 11:36 pm:

I've already investigated these ridiculous, outrageous claims which I already knew to be false, and I know what you snakes are up to and what you've "blow out of proportion" again. In the interest of other people's lives, which you guys "pretend" to care about, but actually DO NOT (as I said, nothing is too diabolical in here, as long as it fits the predetermined end), there may or may not be an explanation given. But... To Those Reading At Home: Let's just say that for now, it's absolutely sickening considering the details I know about -- which doesn't surprise me in the least since I already know a lot about the spiritual thugs in here ANYWAY -- that someone would dare to twist things as they have. Mike has never, EVER done what he is accused of here. (And GetAGrip, there is very, very, very good reason why they haven't posted the "proof" yet...) Maybe more later, as I spend some time actually caring about these situations and seeing whether something is worth posting or not. Meanwhile, Cult_Fighter... Have a seat. You'll be waited on if and when others are ready. If you don't like the "service" in here, you are of course free to leave. But you, my friend, are in absolutely NO position to "demand" nor will anyone "cower" to you or "bow down to" your "demands" (which is ironically very germane to your spiritual condition both in the past and presently and just why you are where you are right now and why your life has turned out the way that it has...) -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, October 03, 2006 - 11:46 pm:

PS. And notice how I will most certainly be attacked and called "arm-twisting" for my last post whereas those on the "prosecution" side can say, and phrase, and DEMAND whatever they want with "put up or shutup" phrases and absolutely NOTHING was said then. The POINT (aside from the fact GottaPost, DanRepent, Cult_Fighter and others in here are lying through their teeth) is that this is a free and open forum, and a Godly church is being put ON TRIAL IN HERE without "due process of law" -- which is again a right we are supposed to have as citizens (and these snakes KNOW that that isn't going to happen), and the strong-arming is entirely inappropriate. But these "rabid animals" (Jude, 2 Peter 2) in here are dying to sink their teeth into the kill... Nobody has to put up with this and it will not be put up with... One day the KKK white masks in here are going to come off you will stand completely bared... -co

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 8:50 pm:

Wow. I can't believe you guys posted that letter, and that GottaPost posted that link on Mike's reply to another marriage situation. You guys are actually so drunk on your "witch hunt" that you think this actally proves your point, when in fact most pagans wouldn't even disagree with the advice Mike provided. For someone that was acting like Vince, the children did need to be protected. The only thing is that unfortunately, Liz is bold-faced lying about some of this. She was concerned that Vince would MOLEST the children -- it had absolutely nothing to do with "a cult" thing. And my understanding is that Vince did sit down with Mike once. I've found that for whatever reason, Liz, has chosen to "rewrite history" here a little bit when all that happened was others were reacting to her concern and alarm and not someone [Mike] "telling her what to do" and so-called "interfering." It's sad to see Liz lying here (again as she is on Tim Dennis' so-called "cult" site), but... that's her choice and her life. If she's "fine" now, great. Now for ALL YOU GUYS and for those reading at home. Those letters that were just posted is EXACTLY what we have been talkng about and NOT ONLY THAT, BUT... All the venomous SNAKES in here, accusing and persecuting this church for CARING about situations like that, have been GUILTY of the same kinds, level, and types of things, and DIDN'T WANT TO REPENT, but wanted to KEEP ON LIVING THAT WAY, and they simply weren't allowed to do those kinds of vile, perverted, dangerous, lawless (both according to the laws of the land and God's law) things and still call themselves "Christians." So they GOT MAD and here they are in here venting, fuming, accusing, slandering, lying, persecuting, and seeking revenge!!! I mean if this is what everyone is so worked up about, then I would be nearer to God to become a PAGAN than to following "teachings," sentiments, attitudes and actions of the pack of wolves in this forum. In every single case where these kinds of things have come to the attention of the authorities, THEY have expressed alarm, and in some cases, investigations took place, so seriously did even pagans take it (when they were even involved -- most of the time, everyone in here was protected from civil and media exposure and it was only considered, as in the case of Liz, when there was very, very high danger.) Now if the STATE takes this kind of stuff seriously WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THIS CHURCH BEING VILLIFIED FOR?????????

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 8:55 pm:

And two of the biggest "dissenters" in here -- Cult_Fighter and GottaPost -- are only upset with Indianapolis and Columbus because their wives at least have enough sense to see this kind of stuff for what it is too according to the Word of God (and not what "Mike said"), and their husbands -- who are absolute TYRANTS at home and SO unChristlike, uncaring, revolting, and unloving -- that pagan women would not put up with them. THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH "FEMENISM" SINCE THEIR WIVES -- AND I KNOW THEM -- TRY HARD, HARD, HARD TO PLEASE AND BE SUBMISSIVE TO THESE UNCARING BEASTS whereas a pagan woman wouldn't put up with their shananegans and Mike has done nothing but push, push, PUSH these women back towards their husbands (as little as they deserve it, so PERVERTED is their idea of "submission" as well as other things "spiritual" in their minds, re-writing the scriptures to suit themselves -- it runs closer to all out totalitarian, Islamic rule). Now... Everyone reading at home, understand that the handful of "dissenters" in here are just upset because someone is willing to stand up to them and not take this garbage and also to try and help guide their wives in their situations around men who are so perverted with admitted porno addictions, prostitution, potential for child molestation (of their OWN CHILDREN), emotional battering and abuse, and the list goes on.... Now why Liz has chosen the path she's on now -- including her bold-faced lying (read her original letter and you can even read between the lines and see she definitely did have some "change of heart") -- is entirely her business. No one is "making" her do anything, and you can see from the letter Mike sent her that he didn't TELL her what to do, but only suggested something that anyone else like James Dobson or Billy Graham, any one of hundreds or perhaps thousands of other "christian counselers" would suggest: PROTECT THE CHILDREN if you suspect evil, filthy, perverted actions to be taken against them. Wow, wow, wow, I am just AMAZED that anyone would have a problem with ANYTHING that has recently been posted as "proof" of Mike's "withholding affection doctrine." If THAT'S what "being a cult is" then, so be it. (And let the reader consider, this has absolutely nothing to do with those so-called "10 Signs of a Cult" thing on Tim Dennis' so-called "cult" board.) Again, this is nothing but a forum full of a pack of wolves who protect and harbor these kinds of civil and spiritual perverts who didn't and apparently don't want to change and are even openly advocating their right to "children and family and 'legalized s-x'" while still living like pagan preverted animals, or why are they here beating up on Indy and Columbus??? Yes, "Cult_Fighter", by all means and a thousand times YES!!!!!! to answer your question: If I were immersed in pornography, an emotional tyrant at home, who was suspected of having potential and by my actions causing my own wife to suspect that I could molest my own children, then yes, yes, YES!!! I would want Mike or anyone else -- a pagan would be fine too!!! -- to write them instructing them to get away from me and stay away from me until I came out of the pig pen and came back to my senses!!! You are so evil and have been for YEARS!!!!!! Insinuating that the church there is advocating some evil "withholding affection" when it's a twisted and vengeful LIE on your part!!! You have been so VENGEFUL and SPITEFUL throughout the years.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:00 pm:

Does the reader at home really need any more proof than what has been posted as "proof"???? Understand the pack of wolves and deceivers in here, okay? Dennis Elslager (SpeakingTruth) and his wife, Jen, who is guilty mainly of defending him, but also poking her unknowing and worldly wise nose into situations she can't understand and has no ackground on othe than what her angry and selfishly prideful and sinful husband has told her): Angry because he couldn't have his way in Indy and "be a leader" while in close proximity to selfish, evil and multiple sexual sins, not to mention his major and obvious pride, ambition, and self-exhaltation. He was essentially only asked to lay back for a while and let's see how things went with his then addiction, and he didn't like it. Period. That's all that is going on with him (and has been ever since -- he can't stand being confronted, nor can his wife see Dennis, herself, nor the other evil vipers in here properly). Tim Dennis (DanRepent): Never was in the church in Columbus. His 100% lying and evil scheming was completely revealed (follow the link below) and is a fraud, a liar, and a persecution ring-leader whose wife, Danielle, is simply in cahoots with him (for whatever reason): http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=339683#POST339683 Cult_Fighter and GottaPost: You already read what I wrote above. These men are abosolute TYRANTS at home and are angry, mad, upset, and bitter that their wives cdon't agree with them but rather have the nerve and the where-withall to view sin properly while STILL tending to these creatures of instinct and trying to be loving submissive wives (who have been asked to please, please, please keep loving these men instead of the other way around as it's painted time and time and time again in here.) Scannyd and others: These people are along for the ride or are in behind-the-scenes cahoots with the others here for who knows what reason. "SOME will love the Truth and so be saved." And some, simply will not. Why? We don't always know "why" but JESUS said it would be that way and that people will get mad, form a vendetta, and ultimately MURDER those who DO love and obey the Truth. Scannyd is from Columbus and in cahoots with TIm Dennis and Danielle. "Fellow2" and others are scattered about in various places and upset about "visits denied" or whatever else -- their own pride (in being denied -- when the people in Indy have a right to deny visits to homes with families and children since that's all that is there is just "homes"), or their "thrill of the chase," power mongering, control, or what have you... Also see my original post where I told everyone here what these animals were made of a long, long time ago. We know because we've tried (hard!) to live with them: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=300538#POST300538

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:03 pm:

Let me finally say this: The innocent reader here should know that this thread and the biggotry of FactNet is here because of the jealous rage of a handful of people acting like many, most of which were disfellowship for heinous, unrepented of crimes against God that are repulsive even to most unBelievers, and some are criminally prosecutable for federal crimes of abuse against women and even children. This site is filled with bold faced lies and rewriting of history by those with unmentionable immoralities, carelessly and maliciously accusing the Blood of Jesus by accusing and lying against some who love Jesus with all their hearts and make no claims for themselves except faith in Jesus' Blood as atonement and the Scriptures as much abused, neglected, and disobeyed by modern attendance-based religion. For this "crime" of not desiring the FactNet crowd's unBiblical religion of family destruction -- 50% divorce rate and 75% loss of children and 80% involved in internet pornography -- for opposing these factnet guys' lives of such sin and defense of divorce and living lives of pornography and Lawlessness, we are villified. So be it. We wouldn't want what you "have" for any amount of persecution and biggotry and hate crimes you threaten. For the innocent reader, spend as much time as you want reading thousands of documents and listening to hundreds of available hours of audio and video of Life -- and you will find that there is no "control" or "legalism" of any kind there or in daily life amongst the Saints -- no matter what the liars here, out of jealousy and revenge motives, say here. "Test the spirits" YOURSELF. -ChrisO More materials to read, listen to and inspect here: http://www.AllAtHisFeet.com Their email: AllAtHisFeet@cs.com My email: WirklichMir144@yahoo.com

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:11 pm:

"In this world one must be like everybody else if he doesn't want to provoke scorn or envy or jealousy." --Mark Twain

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:53 pm:

A couple of followups: (1) Here's another email someone else sent me who was on copy for an email Mike sent to Liz concerning the tragedy in her house. So you all can SEE "how" and "what" Mike writes "other women" (while very evily and despicably TWISTING it -- Cult_Fighter and GottaPost -- and leaving out the dark, evil, wicked stuff going on inside those homes.) Hi Elizabeth... Much prayer and love for you in Jesus. Unfortunately, out of 7 billion people on the planet and Jesus' Oath that "few will be those who find Eternal Life" -- the odds are high that we will have many on the "broad road that leads to Destruction" in our surroundings, or even in our homes. It is sad, but meant to refine us for Him, regardless of the pain. He wants to Teach us Wisdom and Patience and Courage in the midst of the "Lessons" He places in front of us in the very temporary "vapor" life in this era and realm. It's never any fun, but do take heart that His love for you and plans for you are intact, and you need just respond to HIM in Peace, regardless. No one can truly "take" anything from you, if you’re His. Just stay protected and perfected in His Peace, and do your best with the "external" circumstances. Keep the Place INSIDE of you a beautiful Place, always. He'll make it worth your while. And, frankly, if the "worst" things happen (your husband's additional abuse to you and addiction to perversions, physical violence or any such thing), he will only be further exposing himself as a fraud to HIMSELF, to the courts, to his "friends" and whomever. You can see, then, that even the "worst" - can "work together for the Good." His further sin and rebellion and hatred of Righteousness and Love may shame him and be the very thing that allows your husband to bow his knee before the Living God, while there is still time. The "avoidance" of the "bad" things in YOUR life can actually prevent the Good things, the Eternal things. So, stay close to Jesus and at Peace... and Trust. This wil! l work out, in time. It is a fallen planet, with much sorrow, chaos, and evil. Keep your heart a Beautiful Place, and Trust. In His Love, mike

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, October 04, 2006 - 9:54 pm:

(2) And concerning Mike's time with Vince, that I told you Liz is lying about, my understanding is that Mike has spent over an hour one on one with her husband, and Vince was very happy to talk and they discussed his desire to be free in Christ from his sins. Why Tim Dennis and Elizabeth felt the need to bring up lies that only exposes the sinful deeds of darkness and fear of molestation that caused Elizabeth to come to others for help. I understand that probably a dozen emails have been saved with this issue of Elizabeth's cry for help about illegal and immoral concerns in her home, as well as a lengthy detailed account of exactly when and how Elizabeth sought out others for help with her tragic home life. Again, why she's suddenly come to a change of heart on representing these things, is a mystery in some ways, but again... That's her choice. It doesn't change the facts of what went on and there are plenty of others other than Mike that can bear witness to this tragedy. Again, is the picture being better painted of the lies, schemeing, vengefulness, pride, slandering, malcontent, and other things going on here? And that people here, namely Tim Dennis, but also Cult_Fighter and GottaPost would use people like Liz for their diabolical ends -- which I've been saying here all along??? -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2006 - 5:01 pm:

GottaPuke vilely pukes: "Some little girls are not too old for me to pick up and hold on my lap." Why did he single out "little girls"? Is it right for a 50 year old man to be holding "little girls" on his lap that aren't his children? Tell me if I'm wrong. Okay... I'll tell you. YOU ARE WRONG. You are also VILE, PREVERTED, wicked, evil and as DISGUSTING a creature as anyone I know for your vile, satanic preverted way of slanting, painting and insinuating about Mike Peters. And you'll likely one day, unless you change very, very drastically, be vying along with Jen Elslager and Tim Dennis for the deepest, hottest and darkest part of hell for the way you arrogant and maliciously conduct yourself. But that's YOUR business. Meanwhile, you know GOOD AND WELL that WHAT Mike was in fact stating is that there comes a time, when it's imappropriate for a man to have a girl on his lap because she isn't a "little girl" any more, and vice versa for a woman. Now you, dark snake, KNOW that that's what he meant and ONLY what he meant. But yet you choose to continue to come here and prevert yourself and the Truth like this, pulling up single sentences completely out of context and using them for your own evil plying and diabolical ends!! I tell you once again, that He WILL come in is mighty wrath one day and you WILL BE CUT DOWN BY THE SWORD OF HIS WRATH for what you have done and are continuing to do (and it cannot be too soon as far as I am concerned.) You will NOT be able to stand before Him and say someone didn't warn you MULTIPLE times of this, GottaPuke. And a CURSE on you and all those with you. I KNOW WHO YOU ARE -- ALL OF YOU despite the KKK white masks in here (and most of you based on your arrogant, vile, preverted spiritual fingerprints alone). And no one else on the internet, reading this, knows of all the MULTIPLE (Dennis), filthy, perverted, sexual, ridculous, hellish sins of pornography, impurities, sex, violence, anger, rage, divorce, child abuse, forgery, role playing, and other list of sins a mile long you all have been involved in. Both in the past as well as NOW. No place is too low for you to stoop down to, including pulling children and young adults such as Skeza2505 (LM) into you evil clutches and claws!!! You will all be paid out in kind one Day. Mike Peters never meant anything close to what you are insinuating, and you know it. You are as disgusting and you are preverted. ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 12:08 am:

A followup to the lies Lisa is now speading, containing an MP3. And also uncovering the ridiculous assertion that Lisa just "popped in here" of her own accord but in fact was in cahoots with the ringleaders here before "appearing on her own": http://home.comcast.net/~chris.olive/ Likely just all more fuel for the fire, but I'm not too worried about it any more. It WILL all get settled One Day and it won't be that too far away. Later, ChrisO (Message edited by wirklichmir on November 08, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:52 am:

Written by a 20-year-old in Indianapolis. Literally hundreds more could be written by all of the children there as well as many more that have "moved on": Would it help anyone to tell you the fact that as a child here (from age 5 to 20) I was not EVER spanked by anyone other than my two parents-- none else. And I could be a pretty rebellious stinker for ANYone. The person watching me who was someone other than Mom or Dad might have told me to sit in a chair to think abt what I had done, but they would report what happened to my parents when they returned and I was spanked by one of them-- never by the person who watched me. And I am SURE, if it were true any ol' person here could just spank any disobedient child, I would have been possibly one of the biggest candidates for such a thing… but it never happened. There was only ONE time my parents gave a person permission to spank me when they were leaving for a couple day trip, but it never came up. And Lisa you remember "the girls" here, surely? Five or six of us did a lot of things together in the short time you were here. We all took piano lessons with that Russian teacher with you Lisa, we played together, and did projects with you. Just for your information, every one of us "girls" would say, each ourselves, that we have FLOURISHED here Spiritually and have become young women with a love for and a desire to live for Jesus. We each, at our own time, have chosen to dedicate our lives for Him. Any of us would say we are grateful to be where we are where so many people express a love for Jesus and we can all learn and grow into His likeness together. No one "talks about sin all the time" or "is forced to confess" or does anything negative to children or anyone else, or any of that terrible stuff you say. It does not happen. And I have lived here for fifteen years, and not just ten years ago when I was still little like you and I were at the time. As far as Mike, I see the man quite often and he in NO way has some wierd, freaky-religious, mystical way abt him. For example one can find the guy watching an occational football game with a dozen other people in the room with his diet coke and superbowl food, cheering and booing and laughing and conversing like we all are. He's just WITH us as everyone else is. He has no "high view" of himself and never ever acts like he does. Never in my life (and I've been here in Indy for nearly 15 years-- while you were here long ago and didn't even know him) have I seen him act as you described when he "high-fived" you in passing as a little girl... ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 - 11:57 am:

Lisa, You too now, are an adult. You are free to choose whatever you would like to choose be it winking at and flirting with boys and swimming with whomever you like, dressed (or undressed) however you like, etc., or whatever else. All the things here that you've written that you were so "disgusted with" you don't have to worry about any more. You too can choose -- and accept whatever consequences now or eternally that will come from them. It's up to you. Just as... Everyone else here is also free to do. Free to slander and lie and hate and presecute. The sins discussed here on the part of those churches were sins the people here were ACTIVELY involved in when they left, and for many were NEVER repented of. And IF they really HAD or HAVE truly repented of those things, both for you and the others here you've chosen to fall into league with, then that would put them in agreement with those churches and you all wouldn't BE HERE slandering those people and churches who poured out love, affection, money, gifts, friendships, oddles of time, education, and other things on you in ABUNDANCE, now would you? It's up to you... The way is BROAD that leads to destruction and MANY find it. Bye for now... ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 10:02 am:

Well, Sandy (redmask), let's see... Angie's father is in Indy, all of her children, her husband, her mother-in-law and father-in-law, not to mention first cousins and even second cousins are there -- and they ALL think Angie's doing great. You know, as I recall Sandy, you kinda fell apart while you were in Indianapolis. I'm personally not aware of all the details, as is pretty much 100% the case with everyone there when issues arise -- they are protected and their integrity guarded, even now when they get mad because they weren't allowed to continue in sin and be "leaders" like they wanted and turn into virulent, vengeful enemies later. Those people are here now. If you want to join them, that's entirely your business, as was YOUR decision to step out of the lives of those you claim here to love in spite of those same people trying to care for you then (which you term here as "camped outside your door" -- how many MILLIONS of people on the planet wished desparately that they had family and friends like THAT when most people don't even want to provide you with time of day, but, oh well...). You in the end, as was everyone else here, including myself, were allowed to do what you insisted upon doing and you were left alone to do it when it was clear what YOU wanted. (The ringleaders in here have records in other church settings which are similar, so again, it wasn't "Indy." Indy just saw the same things that a whole bunch of other people saw. Spiritual frauds who are ANGRY that they can't have their way with people who have seen underneath their thin veneres...) It's amazing how people want to SIN and then expect there to be NO consequences in relationships, Sandy. This isn't an "Indy" thing as the spiritual thugs here would like to make it seem and you perhaps would like to believe yourself. It's a WORLD thing. A SIN thing. Watch the news. Read the papers. Sin KILLS relationships. :-( I'm sorry you seem inclined to cast your lot with the spiritual shape shifters in here. It's pitiful how people are in love with themselves SO MUCH that they would rather take on "friends" which stoke their FLESH and tell them the LIES they want to hear, and ABANDON their own family who love them by telling them the TRUTH. ("Sweet are the worlds of an enemy, but bitter are the words of a FRIEND.") How about it, Sandy??? It seems that nearly everyone who's been in Indianapolis that didn't want to pay the full price Jesus asked everyone to pay is suddenly landing here. That's not many by the way, for our readers at home, but, as you can see here -- a handful, as Jesus said would be the case if we truly followed Him. It's going to turn even the members of our own households into ENEMIES. -ChrisO PS. I'm sorry to see you've taken up the position of hyper-spirituality and the on-going mantra of "cheap grace" people in here are carrying which Dietrich Bonhoeffer warns us all of... :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:31 am:

Hadn't heard from Angie previous to my last post, but in response to what I wrote, Angie wrote and said: Not to mention that this is where my TRUE Family is, and there is no other place in this WORLD I'd want to be than here with them!!! -angie It seems almost Sandy's entire family is still living in Indianapolis. I left out Angie's step-mother and even third cousins. So much for "not accepting physical family." In fact, now that I think about it, and didn't until just now, of ALL the churches I've ever been in -- mainline, Protestant churches across 6-7 different states (FL, AR, IN, IL, OH, CT...) -- the church in Indianapolis has more immediate family members in it than any other church I've EVER seen. Some families like Sandy's have aunts, uncles, cousins, nephews, etc. living in Indianapolis. So, Sandy. Of the nearly **20** people in your immediate family that I can list off the top of my head, are you saying they left YOU??? That's not my recollection since you left while I was there, by the way, but my recollection is that all of those people came to beg YOU to "stay with family" (and many others who cared about you as much as any "physical family member" ever did or could), and YOU decided something different. WHich is ENTIRELY yours to do. No one was making you then or saying you should now decide otherwise. But let's not paint it HERE like YOU were "abandoned" or not "cared for." When I know good and well that was NOT the case. But what's new, since I've yet to read a single thing in this forum that isn't a concocted, twisted, fabricated lie (eg. details conveniently left out or twisted and contorted) on the part of people who are angry they couldn't have their way. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 11:57 am:

Wow First_Truth. That's pretty BOLD of you to "request" that I "leave RedMask alone" when there are literally HUNDREDS of posts "picking on" and slandering many others in here. It's FUNNY, isn't it, that Mike Peters can be practically CRUCIFIED in here, but when someone mentions the TRUTH about their honest recollection of RedMask's situation (Sandy) and IMMEDIATELY the cry (the SCREAMS) of "FOUL!!!!!!" are heard. Isn't that what this forum is all about ANYWAY?? A bunch of people screaming "FOUL!!!!!" at the top of their lungs???? It's a public forum, DT, and I have as much right to come in here and state the TRUTH as you guys have to come in here and slander, lie, fabricate, twist, contort and even speak as vilely as you do. Again, you and your buddy, Cult_Fighter, seem to think you have some authority here. Have a seat. If people want to answer your pathetic posts, they will. I personally don't know of anyone following all this very closely in Indianapolis (again contrary to what Tim Dennis would like everyone to believe), because (1) they don't have TIME -- they are too busy out on the streets, serving one another and the people around them to CARE to answer your VOMIT, and (2) they are frankly SICK of dealing with people like you and everyone else in here. (And it would be a sin for them to continue to do so when Jesus said of the "ground that drinks in the rain and PRODUCES NO FRUIT" to "DIG IT UP!!!" When there are literally HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who WANT the Truth and are in AGREEMENT with it!!!) You've all had your second, third, fourth, fifth and sixth chances, MOST of those chances PAID FOR by those people on their CREDIT CARDS (as I've already pointed out) as they helped move a lot of you in here to other places, hoping against all hope that you all would CHANGE. We see now that that has NOT happened, but instead, the drink of BITTERNESS has only run it's coarse and hardened your spiritual veins. Frankly, it's all I can do myself to get in here from time to time and address the vomit you guys spew, such is the regularly posted stench in here, but it so happens that I'm "wired" in such a way that I can't ABIDE the thought that you spiritual thugs would get away with this garbage. Now why don't YOU GUYS go and leave this church alone as YOU ALL were left alone and have been for ***YEARS*** to go and live life however it seemed "right" to you "in your own eyes???" Again, it's utterly AMAZING that you would have the AUDACITY to ask me to "climb down" when again you guys have literally waged an ALL OUT ***WAR*** on Mike Peters and the people in this church, not only posting here, but setting up blogs, other web sites, news groups, posting to as many message threads/BBs on the Internet as you can, cold calling people (friends, relatives, other web site owners, etc.), leaving bogus "reviews," sending out SPAM emails to people on email address lists you obtained WITHOUT PERMISSION, etc. I mean, you guys are absolute CRIMINALS (some of your activities literally break criminal code), and when I say one word about what I saw when I was in Indianapolis, it's "oh leave them alone????" We have a lot of people in here so "eager" to point out "hyposcrisy" while functioning in the very height of it themselves. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:26 pm:

You know, again, First_Truth, I can't get over the fact that you would call out all those men -- most of those men and their families paying HIGH INTEREST on their credit cards for THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS they have spent on you and others (affecting even their CHILDREN) -- that you would call out these men and CHALLANGE THEM to WASTE MORE TIME ON YOU than they already have. See, readers??? These VILE SPIRITUAL THUGS **KNOW** that Mike Peters isn't the only leader in that church -- First_Truth named a list of more (and still not ALL) -- and they have NO QUALMS (as it says in Jude and 2 Peter 2) SELFISHLY DEMANDING MORE TIME be spent TO NO AVAIL on them. Like the bunch of SANBALLATS they are. It defies description that in doing so he would "paint" them as so "uncaring" when that list of men have spent YEARS and YEARS petitioning and trying to help the spiritual shipwrecks in here, and First_Truth wants to soak up their time AGAIN. It's truly amazing... -ChrisO (And not that any of them WOULDN'T give you a 7th chance or whatever chance you would be on next, IF!!! ***IF*** you would "bear fruit in keeping with REAL repentance" instead of just blowing the smoke of your cheap "I'm forgiven" brand of "grace" in here per Dietrich Bonhoeffer and others. The internet is literally LITTERED with your current mode of living NOW indulging in vile movies, horror flicks, fantasy gaming, sexually charged/themed movies and games, and signs of drug addictions and other vices. BEAR FRUIT IN KEEPING WITH TRUE REPENTANCE instead of CRUCIFYING the very people who have spent untold hours and resources trying to help you all!!!)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Friday, November 17, 2006 - 12:54 pm:

Oh "good night, Gracie," and you other shape-shifters in here... You guys sound and act just like the little junior-high playground bullies that you are -- taunting and twisting and trying to make people who stand for the Truth and who care look like "idiots." I've been out of this forum for WEEKS at a time and have no problems keeping my mouth shut most of the time. Again, you guys are so CRIMINAL in here it defies description and then you like to paint everyone that says a "peep" as being bed-wetting, blood-boiling "psychotics" (which again is really ironic, when true, diagnosed mental illness infects a lot of you all in here.) Again, it's pretty disgusting that you all haven't grown up past junior high school yet, still playing your "playground tricks" of "turning the tables," "I'm the rubber, you're the glue" stirring up on anyone who dare utters a "peep" and trying to make them look like "pansies." You paint it like you all are in here for a Sunday stroll through Central Park smelling the flowers or something, when you guys here have spent 6-7 months committing character assassination that is every bit as evil and vile as those we hear about on the news cold-bloodedly putting a gun to someone's head, pulling the trigger, and killing them execution style. Why don't you go down to the local Federal district courthouse and tell the district judge who rightly sees how vile and wicked the cold-blooded murderers are he tries day in and day out -- with THEIR pathetic "excuses" like you guys have in here, trying to "twist" things in their favor and using every legal trick in the book to get back out on the street so they can continue commiting those crimes -- why don't you go down and tell HIM to "calm down." Or the families those criminals destroyed... He doesn't have to calm down however. He's the judge and he's simply going to put those people away, and he has every right to feel the level of disgust as he does just as I do here. So again... Stop with your junior high school "bed-wetting" taunting and accusations and grow up to see the world the way most responsible, even PAGAN adults do. I've told some of my pagan, chain-smoking, multiply divorced, adultrating, porn-watching, sailor mouthed coworkers about SOME of your (plural) shananagans here and frankly it's absolutely disgusted every one of them I've spoken to and MOST of them wouldn't hesitate to hunt you all down and take a 2x4 to most of you, such is how it disgusts them. You all know you are dealing with people, followers of Jesus, who can't even BEGIN to even THINK that way, but the verdict from the pagan world is that THAT is what most of you DESERVE. And you dark snakes KNOW IT. WHich is why you do the ridiculous, table-turning play ground taunting and mocking that you do as well. Now go do your junior-high playground, bed-wetting, table-turning "blood boiling" hypocritical "calm down and relax" rhetoric and tactics on SOMEONE ELSE. -ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 2:14 am:

Tim, The only reason the vile, perverted person who wrote all those twisted half-truths on Mike needs to remain "anonymous" is because he or she is lying through their teeth and they KNOW it. I've never in all my life seen as much cowardice and people who stoop into hell as you all do to come up with the things you write about. How DARE any of you even INSINUTATE that you are followers of Jesus or in any way righteous at ALL (you all have no comprehension of that word) when you have no backbone or spine to state your testimony out front, in the open, and with NAMES, as **GOD DEMANDS**???!!! It's because you all are lying through your teeth and I might add that you don't have to go far for your sick, twisted "material" and perspectives. You all are entirely guilty of actual perversions and gross sin and have no purity in your hearts at all that you would be able to see situations you've described in ANY way as they actually were and are. This is false testimony through and through (as has been going on for months here and on your other demonic sites.) "To the pure all things are PURE," but to the satanically perverted and enraged and angry... You become what every person who has ever denied Jesus WITH THEIR LIVES has become (regardless of what you all "claim" -- which is just as erroneous as the lies you fabircate about others.) I know fully well what "situation" your anonymous, evil "friend" has written about, and I can say beyond a doubt there was never ever even a HINT of anything like what he/she so cowardedly describes in that man's life. Again, "to the pure, all things are pure," but to the defiled all things are defiled -- you can't imagine that others actually could wash, cleanse and purify themselves to a point that is utterly beyond reproach, and it ANGERS you all that your lives were shown for what they were in some of the most gross and indescribable sin then AND NOW (and a lot if not most of it sexual in nature, which again, as I said, you don't have to go far for your "material.") Just like Jesus and the "myths" perpetrated (and STILL perpetrated to this DAY) concerning Mary Mag, as well as the insinuations of "incest," "sleeping around" and other so-called "sins" of the disciples of the early church (who were also vehemently called a "cult" in their day with twists and insinuations and half-truths brought against them to discredit them), SO WITH YOU ALL HERE. This is always satan's "trump card" is to try and discredit, lie about, defame, malian and otherwise "discredit" True Believers, and always with "insinuations" usually of male/female doings. This is classic, historic, 2000-year satanic "reaction" is to lie, slander, insinuate and to publicly discredit as a last resort, as was done with all the prophets, Jesus, Paul, every apostle, and all the early Christians. All were "made to look" like they were "vagabonds," "incestuous," "cultic," haters of civic good, and the like.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 2:16 am:

Meanwhile, the rap sheet on your lives of fornication, sensual and sexual perversions, child-endangerment, wife abuse, wife stealing, dealings with lesbians, perverted and sensual movie watching and reality game playing is WELL DOCUMENTED throughout the internet EVEN NOW, much less the countless witnesses to your perversions and sins, including some in your number with actual police records in several cities (public record!). So, yeah... There's a need for your "friend" with all this so-called "insight" and accusation to "stay anonymous" INDEED, as with the rest of you. And just like satan, your leader, he's a coward and always has been from the beginning. This is the way he ALWAYS operates. In the dark, behind the scenes, "anonymously," spewing lies and accusations, with no accountability and no love for the Light at all. This testimony is DIGUSTING, not so much from the wild and wicked lies and insinuations, but more so from the WAY it is done -- as is ALWAYS done by you all. ChrisO PS. And don't go blowing all the rest of your satanic "smoke" about "death threats" and how your "lives are endanger." They are endangered alright. VERY endangered. But not the way you all "play" it to be, again, with your "twists" on truth. More than a third of you all have been clinically declared MENTALLY ILL, so I guess none of this "my life's been threatened" dellusional stuff is any surprise ANYWAY, much less the rest of it all. God help you all...

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:49 pm:

Well, not that it's going to matter my sticking my head back in this cesspool again, defending this church, but since I was there at the time of all this (eg. praying for "Bob and Tom," and the woman in question here, and Mike's so-called "anger," etc.) and since I personally know "who" and "what" this not-so-anonymous person (MR -- whom I also know) is talking about on Tim Dennis' slander site, let me point out a few things for those reading at home again, since for the demonics running this thread with their own following of a handful of dissidents, it's not going to matter anyway.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:50 pm:

The "Bob and Tom" Thing The "Bob and Tom" thing was not Mike's idea, thought, or so-called "prophecy" in any way shape or form. I was IN the gathering where that was first bought up, and it was never Mike's idea in the least. It was BC's idea -- another brother and not even a leader; the whole church joined with this brother in something he thought was important at the time. (So, right there... So much for "Mike controlling every little anything" or "only if you are a [so-called] 'top-tier' believer, can you do or say or suggest anything" since this was just a brother and not a leader that the ENTIRE CHURCH valued and took seriously.) And this brother at the time had the idea after seeing multiple filthy, perverted billboards in the city advertising these dirty birds. (The brother who asked the church to pray about this evil talk show, where they openly MOCKED God, spent a good amount of time driving in the city for his work and was sick of seeing this perversion and mocking of his God.) They (we, then) put a lot of passion into praying and asking others to pray about removing that stuff, and actually there has never been that sort of pornography on those billboards since that time. To repeat the point, this not-so-anonymous person on Tim Dennis' sickening slander site, disfellowshipped a decade ago, and a known wife-abuser and incarcerated drunk, claiming to be a spiritual expert of course, has no idea what he's talking about on any of the matters he's addressed, starting with the "Bob and Tom" accusation. Mike had nothing to do with conceiving the idea to pray for those billboards to be removed and "Bob and Tom" to be converted. Totally another brother's idea. Mike did give "Bob" a tract (written by a Baptist) at a restaurant once, but had nothing to do with starting others to pray for the pornographic billboards to come down. And, while "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" had no real conscience about the billboards, even the newspapers in Indianapolis revolted against the billboards. To check the "credibility" of "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" and his real love for Truth, Purity and spreading Righteousness, you should know of his present constant all-night escapades, refusing to tell his wife who he's with, but coming home with alcohol on his breath and clothing. Sometimes he claims he's out of town, and doesn't come home at all. He's been incarcerated for his alcohol and driving, broken probation innumerable times. He has, ever since disfellowshipped a decade ago, refused to tell his wife where he's at and who he's with, coming home drunk at all hours of the night. His wife and children are amongst the most abused anyone there has ever heard of. Even most pagans hold a higher standard and would never dream of being as "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" is, with females at bars three to four nights a week. Ask his teenage children. Ask his wife. He may try to lie and cover up his identity by claiming this isn't true, and even try to fabricate a coverup, but the police reports he can't remove from the public record, can he?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:50 pm:

Mike's So-Called "Anger" and "Temper" As for "blowing up and losing his temper," there are hundreds of people who have known Mike Peters much longer and more closely than the accusing slanderer above, and have lived in his house even, some for many months, neighbors for decades (I myself being one for years), who would absolutely refute that as utter lies. Mike's kindness and poise under stress, his patience and love and generosity are well-known. Hundreds would swear under oath, and on a lie-detector test, that Mike does not have the "temper" as this liar has claimed, and in fact the exact opposite is true. (Funny how, now that I think about it, "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" actually has temper, anger and interpersonal relationships problems presently...!) Mike is a fairly focused and straight-forward person at times, and can be certainly intense as most can be at times, and readily asks for forgiveness when he sins, as we all do. However, to claim Mike has a "temper" and "blows up" at people is an absolute lie, as many who have known him in every imaginable circumstance, from having his car blown up in the Middle East, to dealing with liars such as "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" -- he does not "blow up" or exhibit "temper." Nor does he ever exhibit prideful or "oracle" behavior (as some of the ringleaders here have been known to do with many witnesses and even their writings now on their multiple personal blogs, drawing attention to their "wisdom" and "convictions" and so-called "scripture knowledge.") I've been in countless high-intensity situations with Mike, on the road, in all-out sporting events (seriously intense basketball and football with bodies flying and injuries and poked eyes, blown out knees, etc.) in four different states with different spates of people each time, and he's nothing like presently drunken, lying, wife-and-child abusing "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" reports here. (I've also, by the way, lived with "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" in two different states as well.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:51 pm:

In fact, (something that does often drive people crazy is) Mike virtually never even "gives advice" to anyone anywhere who asks him "what should I do" about this or that. He makes no claims for himself, controls no money nor makes any one-man decisions for the church (unlike every "pastor" in the world who does both things), and asks for nothing. He is absolutely well-known to be generous and sacrificial (actually to a fault, as I reported very early in this monstrosity called a "thread".) While "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" begged Mike personally to be "salaried" by the church (that person's wife and many others are aware of this), Mike has never received a nickel of salary from the church in over 20 years. He has undergrad degrees and advanced degrees and is an Engineer, has multiple patents for two major companies, and will never have any difficulty "making a living." And I know for a fact on several occasions he took on very demanding freelance Engineering jobs, working until all hours of the night going on 2-3 hours of sleep for weeks to make ends meet for his family and other families while still being attentive and dedicated to the people around him. And this doesn't even count the times and hours he's spent providing free "consulting" to brothers (that in the real world would have cost tens of thousands of dollars in outside consulting fees) to help them start and run their own businesses so that they could feed their families. Men who had no degrees or whose degrees were practically useless in the real world.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:52 pm:

Golfing Many other men in the church were golfers -- a few were/are practically "scratch golfers"!! -- for twenty years before Mike ever touched a golf club, at age 36 when a knee surgeon suggested that he take up golf as therapy for his knee (which he blew out playing basketball, hence the therapy). Just another example of "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous'" lies, false testimony, and innuendo. Mike's golf since that time has never been "every day" ever (I've checked with his wife). And, even though it's none of "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous'" business (not to mention "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" hasn't lived anywhere near Mike in a decade or more), Mike will sometimes play twice in a week, and then go for three or four weeks or longer and never touch a golf club. As recently as a month ago (so I was told by a brother sickened and outraged in reading this), 47 brothers were on a golf trip, and Mike chose not to go, as has been the case several times. "New golf sets" and all this ridiculous baloney is utter garbage. Some there do have the means for upgrading their equipment, others do not. Mike hasn't always bought all of his own golfing equipment, if it's anyone's business anyway. There is so much sharing and swapping and loving and thinking of others and borrowing of equipment by the brothers in that city, it's not even funny. I happen to have a pair of practically brand new golf shoes one of the brothers there provided me with because the fit wasn't right for him and we wear the same size. Just because someone shows up with a new club or even a whole new set of clubs in Indianapolis means nothing. It's actually far more likely that someone bought it for them or gave it to them and handed it across than that they or Mike bought it themselves.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:53 pm:

This Single Sister and "Her Apartment" Innuendos Again, as I stated, I know exactly what situation this evil liar and insinuator is talking about, and just like so many other things twisted, slighted and concocted out of half-truths, necessary information is always left out to make it seem like people here WANT it to seem. I was THERE the first night this single, unwed, "druggie" (at the time) mother was introduced to others in the church there. She needed a LOT of help, and has since, by the witness of many and myself included, become one of the most upstanding, kind, giving, behind-the-scenes, unselfish Christian women that I know. I too have "been in her apartment" as has Mike and any number of other Christian brothers and their wives. See, no one here is going to add the information that Mr. Not-So-Anonymous liar purposefully leaves out that this single sister (with no job, pregnant and then later having just given birth then, and her own apartment) was living in an apartment in a closed breezeway in which 6 or 7 of the 8 apartments in that breezeway were occupied by members -- full entire families -- of the church there. And how on any given night -- actually practically any hour of the day -- the doors to all those apartments were standing practically wide-open with upwards of 25 to 75 people in and out of those apartments -- including hers -- living and loving and caring for one another. One of the apartments in that breezeway was occupied by one of the leaders in the church, and his wife maybe more than anyone at the time, had more hands-on with this single, unwed mother than anyone else, and there is not a single time anyone, including Mike, ever went into that apartment (to help or walk her dog for her or fix her plumbing or whatever else) that at least someone didn't know about it, and usually 8-10 or even 75 people would witness this. It's not ANYTHING AT ALL like "Mr. I'm-out-for-revenge-behind-a-KKK-white-mask" wants it to "sound" like since there was more visiability into that situation and her apartment than the closed-circuit security television at Ft. Knox with dozens and dozens of people constantly around.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:54 pm:

So... So much for the lying and fabrication and innuendos. I was THERE. I lived ACROSS THE STREET and I myself was in that apartment complex practically every night and have been inside this person's apartment as well. WITH all the dozens and dozens of witnesses around. As I already posted previously, this is nothing but the same kind of innuendo and gross allegations that the early church were put under, either due to complete misunderstanding and utter incapacity to comprehend a life that is Given and Lived sacrificially to Others, or... as in the case of Mr. Not-So-Anonymous... is used to slander and hurt and defame people because he's out for revenge. And the KICKER to all this is this...??!!!!??? IF Mike and others had "stayed out of her apartment" THEN they would be ABSOLSUTELY VILLIFIED for doing THAT and called "Legalists!! Unloving!!! Uncaring!!!" and "mocked" for their "inability to trust the Holy Spirit and that he would keep them from sin." See? This kangaroo court, lynch-mob forum doesn't have ONE SINGLE THING TO DO WITH RIGHTEOUSNESS but is an angry lynch mob, as I've already pointed out millions of times here. Jen Elslager in particular is infamous for this kind of polarizing duplicity. If they do one thing... They're a cult. If they don't... they're a cult. Care for someone, an unwed mother, and it's "suspicious." Don't do it, and they are legalists, uncaring, unable to "trust the Holy Spirit" in themselves, can't look after a poor unwed mother... etc.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 1:55 pm:

The Bottom Line The bottom line, as I already stated (but went and checked anyway, even though I've personally witnessed all these things) is... Anonymous is a liar. Ironic that the drunk Anonymous who makes these accusations plays God in his very home, by bullying and controlling his wife, threatening her, refusing to tell her who he is with at the bars, or when he'll be home, year after year after year. He "claims" to go on Chicago business trips so he can disappear overnights, but will give her no details and mocks her and threatens her when she asks. He has driven her to tears, along with the children, hundreds of times in the last decade since he was disfellowshipped. He has broken the law and violated his probation multiple times. Talk about "playing god." And now has the nerve to take decade old and twisted information to try to sound like a marriage and christianity expert. Go figure. These folks with their "agenda" are only making their own lives more miserable, and violating God. Read Psalm 15 should make Tim Dennis, MikeR, TimS, AlanN, DaveT, MarkM, Elizabeth, Jenn, and their slander pals nervous. (But they are so drunken and arrogant and self-entitled, it likely won't make them shudder at all right now.) ChrisO PS. Oh by the way, Jen... Yeah, like a lot of "courage" it took for Mr. Not-So-Anonymous to "post" his lies and accusations. About as much courage as a person crossing the street with the WALK sign flashing. The guy is hiding behind a mask, lying through his teeth, no one knows who he is (well, we do), what he is, what his life's about, he leaves big-time important context and details out, and you call it "courage." Like 25 KKK clansman have "courage" when they are all holding loaded shotguns at the secret midnight lynching of a single black man, all of them hiding behind KKK white masks. "Woe to those who call 'good' evil and 'evil' good...", Jen... WOE to them, says God. :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:10 pm:

Mike's wife's response to the allegations made by this "Anonymous" person on Tim Dennis' sickening slander web site: Not so "anonymous," I'm sorry to hear you are now dragging me into the slander-site. I can't say I'm surprised, since once you hit that road of turning your back on Jesus you have never been remotely the man you were and could have become through Him. Instead, you have twisted words, broken hearts, and have used people for your own purposes. I'm sad to think of what it will be like when you face Jesus one day. You won't be able to blame your actions on anyone when it is just you and Him face to face and eye to eye. No twisted words and manipulating history will work when you face the Lord of Time and Eternity. If you honestly take a minute to consider facing Jesus (which will happen one day, not-so-anonymous. It WILL) you surely shudder at the thought. Just feeling like you had the right to announce up my female health problems to the world is appalling. Jesus protects; He doesn't announce other people's pain for His own benefit. Yes, 15 years ago was the most difficult time of my life hormonally. Yes, I was like the woman with the issue of blood who had been to many doctors. (Three in one year for me.) Over that four year period of time I bled pretty much non-stop, had frequent severe migraines (during the Hinds Feet play the left side of my lip and one eye was swollen because of a severe migraine related to that), and pretty much didn't sleep for a couple of those years. It was the most difficult time of my life by far. I dare say I likely felt quite sorry for myself many times during that season prompted by pure fatigue if not the other things going on hormonally. I do remember the ONE and only one conversation you and I had, during a play practice, when I was exhausted on many levels. And yes, I was feeling sorry for myself. But all that I can say to that is that for none of us will our whole lives be judged by words [during] a foolish time of feeling blue while ill. (Any woman reading this will testify to that and would be very thankful with me!!!)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:12 pm:

That one conversation you have totally twisted to cover your tracks in order to bring more abuse and pain to my very close friend who happens to be your wife and whom I have known four years longer than you have! She does not deserve all you have done to her!!!! She herself is absolutely precious and had never deserved having a husband who defames Jesus' Name and His Family while he himself goes bar hopping each nite, hanging out with women with clothing, lives, and purposes that break the heart of Jesus. Jesus said we are known by our fruit of our lives. I did thankfully pass through that very difficult health season. And problems that seemed like mountains shrunk down to the molehills that they actually were. As for Mike and I... Our almost 30 year marriage is strong, solid, loving, and kind. I'll face Jesus one day as well... and with a heart of peace I can say I can't even remember the last time we had harsh words or even a difficult conversation (not even close to what would be called an argument). I'm sitting here pausing and thinking, and any "crisis" or hard conversation is so far back in time that I flat out can't remember one in literally years. The FRUIT of our marriage is strong, solid, peaceful, Peace-filled, God-loving children. More fruit of our marriage is a relationship that has had open doors for others to live with us as family non-stop since our third month into being married. Besides those who lived with us for a few weeks or months, there are those who lived with us for 4 years, 6 years, and 17 years. THOSE are the ones who can testify to the strength and solidarity in our lives.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:14 pm:

As for the sister who has lived with us for 17 years (who you refered to in the slander-site), she is one of the most sacrificial, kind, hard-working, SPECIAL people I know anywhere on earth. I have seen her pretty much every day for 17 years, and no one could ever see anyone so Changed -- from a total homeless drugged depressed disaster when the college professor brought her to Mike and I, to a solid Godfearing, God loving, obedient, radiant, stable follower of Jesus. I was with this Sister in the hospital with she had her baby (who is now a God-loving, incredibly sweet, bright, cheerful, delightful 16 year old Sister in Jesus. Who can say that of most 16 year olds in the world?). All of these adjectives are simply true -- and are a testimony to the truth of what we say. And not-so-anonymous, if this ever becomes public in a legal and lawful way, with respectible folks judging, our words will be proven true over and over and over again. -kp

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:15 pm:

Addendums: Bob and Tom BTW, the "BC" I mentioned who was the one who originated the "pray for Bob and Tom" thought and not Mike as originally lied about... The "BC" is Brad C. The "other" Brad C. Golf All the "weeks and weeks of golf" complete out-and-out lies. Mike's maybe golfed back to back days a handful of times in 15 years, if ever. I'd have to ask him. "Weeks and weeks"??? I know that's garbage for a fact. And again, we see an interesting HYPOCRISY here... Not only does "Mr. Anonymous" lie using words on Tim Dennis' sickening slander site, he also lies by his OMISSION of words as well. It would seem that "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous'" not only drinks a blue streak spending much money nightly at pagan bars in a filthy environment, but he also golfs and TWO OF HIS CHILDREN golf regularly, enter tournaments, take lessons and the like. (The expense of his constant bars "cover charge" and constant alcohol consumption -- the expense and immorality of that exceeds the expense of his childrens' or Mike Peters' or anyone's golf expenses!!!) So, if "Mr. Not-So-Anonymous" thinks golf is evil why did he fail to mention this little "fact?" Wow. Incredibly amazing and ironic, isn't it!!??!!! (Not to mention just all out evil.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:16 pm:

Finally I want to address two things that KP (Mike's wife) mentioned in her message since I know it will absolutely be POUNCED on and the church there will be ripped to shreds (like it hasn't been already). KP wrote: Just feeling like you had the right to announce up my female health problems to the world is appalling. Jesus protects; He doesn't announce other people's pain for His own benefit. The reaction to this is ENTIRELY predictable, esp. one the part of one Jen Elslager. And I want to bring to everyone's attention that: NO ONE IN INDY OR COLUMBUS STARTED THIS WHOLE MESS and yet all the accusers, slanderers and "cult experts" (early on) kept this going and ultimately lead to the newspaper article about Dennis as well as Dan's explanation being posted after this church was backed into a corner. Dan still, as KP mentions, had the decency to ask the moderator to take the post down, and Jen was congratulated countless times, including by myself for having a heart to want to defend her husband. (Which is a little ironic, isn't it? When Tim Dennis posts a slanderous message about Mike's wife.... NOTHING. No outrage. But when it's Dennis and it's TRUE, you'd think WW III was started. Really interesting...) But you know what... Jen doesn't really care about "all that" anyway. She's got the newspaper article and Dan's response which so (seemingly) infuriated her

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on her own personal blog. You see... Dennis and Jen wanted all that stuff posted so they would have an excuse for what they are doing (which is exactly why husbands, wives, children and dogs and cats can be slandered in Indy and.... NOT ONE WORD IS SAID, but if it's "Dennis", then literally, all the wrath of hell comes at this church!) (Message edited by wirklichmir on December 14, 2006)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:18 pm:

It's CLEAR, CLEAR, CLEAR from Jen's own blog and recounting of "what happened" that they went LOOKING for this, and when they found it, they had the fire they wanted and needed to come unglued. Not to mention that they went looking for dirt on another situation, by their own admission, and even went and slandered someone ELSE here on FactNot, calling THAT person a "cult leader" -- see, anyone who stands in their way and who stands up to these mavens who DESPISE AUTHORITY -- gets "labeled" and slurred (not unlike that comedian from Steinfeld recently in the news who in anger and volcanic rage spewed his "n__gg_r" slur, that's how Jen and others here use the "cult" slur to anyone that upsets THEM and gets in their way -- whoever it is, and it wasn't just "Indy.") So enough already with your indignation about "protecting" people, because you all have records a mile long with some of your behind-the-scenes tactics and upfront efforts on web sites and blogs and "book review" sites and BB, slandering and accusing people.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, December 14, 2006 - 4:19 pm:

KP wrote: ...if this ever becomes public in a legal and lawful way, with respectible folks judging, our words will be proven true over and over and over again. Again, as I've done and others as well, KP is simply stating that IF this were ever put in a court situation -- and the evil, vile, demonic people here KNOW that that isn't going to happen, so they know they can get away with slander and libel of the absolute worst kind!!! -- then she is simply saying... YOU ALL WOULD LOOSE. This stuff I've posted, Dan has posted (regarding Tim Dennis' lies and his supposed "involvement" with "Indy" which is as far from the Truth as Alpha Centuri is from Earth), and a few others (Sigh, etc.) would absolutely stand up in court. DOZENS and DOZENS of people know the facts and the details behind every single false accusation, lie, fabrication, twist, contortion and the Reality of the lives here, and if this hypothetically "went to court," you all woudl absolutely loose. And again, this IS going to go to Court One Day... And the Verdict, as I've stated, WILL be final. You may despise, hate, resent and fight back and "twist" your way out of Authority here, Dennis, Jen, Tim, Tim, Allen, Dave, Sandy, Lisa, Mike R., and others... BUT YOU WILL NOT ON THAT DAY. :-( Later, ChrisO

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:03 am:

Well, Cult_Fighter. That was certainly a lot of work you did for everyone. Too bad it does, as you stated, reflect only your tainted viewpoint of hatred towards a group that lives incredibly like Jesus -- enough to obey him and disfellowship those with a long track record of disobedience and sin that would make most pagans raise their eyebrows (and indeed some did and have). And this after long periods of grace, mercy, love and untold resources -- time, money and energy -- poured out on those situations as I have documented. It's interesting, isn't it that the history of America and it's westward expansion would be distinctly different, told from the perspective of the American Indian versus the American white-man frontiersman, now wouldn't it? It think it's also interesting that one of best and most objective retellings of American History was done by a somewhat involved but sufficiently removed third party (Winston Churchhill) such as myself. But of course, those subjective parties might care to disagree with it, as you have said about your own posting. Well, I'm not overly interested in spending another 6 months of my life arguing with people who are bent on lying, slandering, libeling, fabricating, re-telling and reinventing history (many of you with paperbags still over your heads since you DO have something to hide while you try and "convince" the readers here who the "real enemy" is -- while you all remain enemies of the Cross and of Jesus Christ Himself), but... I'll venture another post anyway and then duck out again for another 6 months. Let's see if we can set the record straight "Winston Churchill" style. Again for those just joining us, I too was a member who was disfellowshipped -- TWICE -- and for very good reasons. I've also lived with and know many, though not all, of the liars and fabricators in this forum first hand, having lived with many of them over the last 15 years in various cities and situations. I have EXTENSIVE experience with the church in Indianapolis, and pretty extensive experience with most in here, and it's very, very sad and distressing to see the lengths to which some will go -- due to ambition, pride, bitterness and unrepentance -- to not only lie and cover up, but to try and do as much damage as they can to those who have cared for them the most. And ironically, those who scream and lie the most -- the virtual "ringleaders" in here, have never, ever, ever, EVER even BEEN to either of the churches here. Isn't THAT amazing??!!!! They scream and cry "FOUL!" at the top of their lungs and yet they have absolutely NO -- NONE, NADA, ZIP, ZILCH -- actual experience with EITHER of these churches despite of course lying and saying that they do -- "SpeakingTruth"/"JoyThruChrist" (Jen Elslager), "DanRepent" (Tim Dennis), and "Cult_Fighter" (I'll allow Alan to keep the bag over his head since his "reputation" in other parts of the internet would be at stake.) :-( Well, let's see if we can help Cult_Fighter (or so he thinks... more like "TruthAndGodHater" -- his documentable online activities of sensual, lustful movie watching and other things prove THAT!) a little bit with his of overt hatred:

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:05 am:

2/16/2006: "Maleman" makes initial post -- asking for information about this unusual group from Columbus and Indianapolis -- later points out that this group has seriously damaged his family's relationship with his brother (who is in the cult). Well, not really. "maleman" isn't just "asking for information." His initial posting carries an accusational tone and doesn't really represent those churches accurately. Instead it represents his feelings and hurt. Thankfully, as far as I know, that's somewhat behind "maleman" now and he's enjoying at least some relationship with his brother and a number of misunderstandings have been erased, including MANY involving lies which have just gone on and on and on here. 3/17/2006: "Aging Mom" posts an email from Mike Peters. He (MP) is very abrasive and demeaning with her over her genuine questions. Yeah, maybe the reader SHOULD go back and re-read those posts where Aging_Mom posted her email exchange to a public forum without permission. It's pretty easy to see that it's "Aging_Mom" who has a chip on her shoulder and Mike is by no means abrasive and demeaning. But when you are prideful and arrogant and self-entitled as most of you are in here, I "guess" I can see how you see it that way. :-( Again, it's all a matter of perspective, isn't it, Cult_Fighter? Who's the "indian" and who's the arrogant, prideful, entitled "white man." 3/20/2006: "Aging Mom" posts quotes from a Mike Peters online book. Alarmingly, Peters claims that "God has whispered" in his group's ears a "special message" (this reminded some of other more famous cults). Let the reader here understand Mike has never, ever, ever, EVER in his life ever stated such a thing. Let the reader ALSO understand that the handful (and it's only 7-10 people folks, if THAT!?) in here certainly do take a LOT of exception to what this one man has said -- which is COMPLETELY, 100% DOCUMENTABLE, most of it ONLINE. They "twist" practicably every breath from this man's nostrils. Mike's never, ever, ever, said such a thing in the spirit in which it's written here.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:07 am:

3/28/2006: "FYI" posts (in entirety) Indianapolis News article about the Mike Peters cult. Article exposes Mike and his cult of publically humiliating former member (and victim), Dennis Elslager. Cult_Fighter is truly amazing in his ability to objectively present truth and the facts... Yes, FYI in trying to be some kind of "expert" (Google makes EVERYONE feel like an "expert" these days, now doesn't it?) and "prove" he can type a search phrase faster than your average bear into the Google search engine, posts this article from 12 years ago and essentially throws the "Molotov cocktail" through the window that ignites this entire forum. He has NO IDEA what he's so arrogantly talking about, and the article should never have been posted. Dennis Elslager was PROTECTED by the church in Indianpolis for 12 years. They never said a PEEP about this past sins. But now, as we follow Cult_Fighter's TWISTED anthology here, we're about to see how this ignites this whole thread. By the way, Mike Peter's intentionally "took the hit" when the reporter called and allowed it to come across as if Dennis had been "mistreated" when it was Dennis who started his little (now gigantic) spiritual temper tantrum 12 years ago that has never stopped. it's absolutely PATHETIC how someone (and now his spouse) can have their ENTIRE LIVES defined by one moment in a restuarant. :-( But as we shall see soon, as we continue to follow this "timeline," this is how Dennis Elslager and his Jezebel wife, Jen, deal with ANYONE who has the "audacity" (in THEIR minds) to "cross their paths." They landed here on FactNet to slander someone ELSE who had the guts to stand up to their very observably fraudulent lives in Christ, and when they found the church in Indianapolis in discussion here, unfortunately some responses from FYI's very unfortunate and arrogant posting, they proceeded to started slandering here the church in Indianapolis as well. You'll find as we go on here that Dennis and Jen's "modus operandi" is to scream "cult!" at the top of their lungs whenever EVERYONE confronts them in their lives, which apparently (also documentable on the web) haven't changed much in 15 years. So sad... :-( 3/29/2006: Dan Z posts an extremely slanderous (and now known to be false) account of the Dennis Elslager story -- from the lying memory of Mike Peters himself. (It was later revealed that Mike P himself told this story, only to use Dan as the Factnet poster.) The story paints an immorally dreadful image of Dennis E, using embellished and exaggerated facts. The story (which was retracted, but which ironically you can find in it's entirety on Jen Elslager's blog site -- amazing how they SCREAMED bloody murder when it was posted here, but then after Dan graciously offered to remove it, they reposted it, because they DO need something to scream about... Hmmmmmm?) is entirely true, and in fact Jen herself ADMITTED that here on FactNet. But the "attitude" here is "so what?" because the OBJECT of this thread isn't about Truth or Righteousness but about burning a man and a church at the stake no matter WHAT anyone says and no MATTER WHAT lengths they have to go to accomplish it. The FACTS of Dennis Elslager's life, I myself being a witness to how he carried himself and what he was and still is like, are UNDENIABLE, and MANY, MANY, MANY witnesses can be produced to sunstantiate this. But of course, "they are lying" as Dennis states.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:08 am:

4/11/2006: Conceding his error, Dan Z pays $20 to have the above false (and potentially libellous) character assassination of Dennis Elslager withdrawn from Factnet (see 3/29 above). Dan has the posting removed out of graciousness to the Elslager's. Not because the story wasn't true. Remember, reader, NONE of this would have happened, if Mr. "I'm a cult expert" FYI hadn't so arrogantly and pridefully posted the newspaper article to a public forum, thereby discrediting an incredibly Godly church in the process and backing them into a virtual corner where they felt they needed to provide an explanation for the newspaper article. But again, the article itself was EXACLTLY what the handful of God haters in here needed... And it hasn't stopped for 12 months. (And trust me, it never will now that Tim Dennis and Dennis Elslager especially have "discovered" that the internet is the fastest and best way to "grow" the "following" they always wanted. No one needs to know the details of their actual home lives nowm because through the internet, they can fulfill their insatiable desire for a following of men. Spsiritual ambition without the reality in their lives to demonSTRATE that they should be leaders -- as the BIBLE COMMANDS -- is why these men were asked to leave or were never really integrated in the FIRST PLACE. And the rest of this last year is simply their angry responses and agenda and vendetta of revenge for some people where able to see through their thin venere of "spirituality" rather easily... :-( 4/11/2006: Despite the above, Dan Z continues to attack Dennis E. It's funny again how from the handful here, the "attackees" and the "attackers" are completely reversed in a lot of cases. The way it works here (there are specific, one-sided, self-serving "rules of engagement" here, reader, and I might as well get you "up to date" on one of them...), is that (a) if you are AGAINST the churches mentioned here, and someone writes something in their defense -- no matter WHAT the real attitude or actual "tone of writing" -- then that is the "attackER." If you are (b) AGAINST the churches mentioned here and you are addressed by someone who is FOR them (because you know the truth) then you are the "attackEE." If anything, Dan Z. makes some of the most impassioned, loving, Christlike, moderate and restained postings of anyone on this board, including myself. To say that Dan "attacks" anyone only proves a lot of what I am saying about the one-sited, self-serving "rules of engagement" I've already mentioned. (The "attackER"/"attackEE" thing only being ONE of those many one-sided rules that EVERYONE here MUST follow, or "you too can be a cult." All you have to do is disagree with the motley crew in here, and... "You must be a cultist!" :-) :-( :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:10 am:

4/11/2006: Dennis Elslager (aka "Speakingtruth") emerges to defend himself. All of Mike's lies about him (posted through Dan) are clearly and totally rebutted. Oh, another one of those "rules" I was mentioning... (a) If Mike or anyone in support of Indianapolis says anything, then they are a LAIR. If (b) anyone AGAINST those churches says anything, it's absolutely, 100% the TRUTH. It doesn't matter if most everyone in here has a bag over his head. Or if they've never, ever, ever actually MET any of these people. If THEY say something -- it's the TRUTH. If Indy or someone like myself says something -- someone who has BEEN THERE one TWO OCCASIONS for YEARS and YEARS and has known the people there, some for almost 30 years -- then we are "lying." Hey, makes sense to me...! Never been there and don't really know them and you're anonymous (some of you still until I've exposed you)? They are the "truth tellers" here. Been there for years and has nothing to hide? I (and others there) are the "liars." So get these "rules of engagement" under your belt, readers, it'll you'll go a LONG, LONG way, esp. if you want to post here. 4/12/2006: Mike Peters himself finally emerges on FactNet. Mike both defends himself and continues the character assassination of Dennis E. More examples of the one-sided, self-serving "rules of engagement" I keep trying to get through everyone's head. When Mike is crucified here, unjustly, then it's NOT "character assassination." When the truth is told about someone with a 15 year history of spriritual temper tantrums, spiritual ambition and pride, trying to draw other men to himself, not to mention a lot of other things I won't go into detail on again here (but a past history of sexual perversion DURING THE TIME HE WAS IN THE MIDST OF THIS CHURCH) -- THEN it's "characer assassination." The church in Indy can be dragged through the mud, lied about, fabricated about, twisted, altered, and such, and it's "truth." And again mostly by people who have never been there. When it's the other way around, concerning people with DOCUMENTABLE histories of sin and perversions that make your average pagan blush (not to mention many in here that have documentable histories of MENTAL ILLNESS that included treatment in MENTAL HEALTH facilities), then... THEN it's "character assassination"... Everyone getting these "rules" down go and pat...? Good...! :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:11 am:

4/17/2006: "Cult_fighter" makes first charge that Mike Peters encourages wives to "withhold affection" from their noncompliant (to the cult) husbands. Well, let's get Cult_Fighter straight here, readers, since we're all into "summaries." There are two things from this thread that are absolutely driving Cult_Fighter insane (with hate, fear, and rage)... The so-called "accusation" that "Mike writes and encourages women to withhold affections" from their husbands. And let the reader definitely follow Cult_Fighter's advice and read what they have "presented" (though surely in their OWN LIGHT) concerning all this. Mike has never done what they accuse him of here. He does have relationships, as a leader -- ACCOUNTABLE RELATIONSHIPS -- with many people all over the world, MALE and female. In fact, the MAJORITY of the so-called "proof" in this forum comes from women who WILLINGLY were writing Mike themselves about serious, serious, SERIOUS problems in their own households with their spouses. (Child endangerment, porn, possible molestation, and other issues where "on the line" with those men/husbands.) Mike does NOT do what he is accused of in this forum, but rather what we have instead here are "twists" by men here who are ENRAGED that Mike would DARE suggest that women do NOT have to obey their husbands when the choice between obeying their husbands would lead them to disobey -- very CLEARLY and without question -- Jesus. NO ONE can be made to disobey Christ -- not a husband, not a spouse, not a child, not parent. If what their lives are about VIOLATES Jesus and the covanent they have with HIM, then the person sinning has violated his covanent with his spouse and indeed many have and that is EXACTLY what is going on here. This isn't about some "cult leader" but about a bunch of spiritual mavens who PRETEND to be "husbands" who are absolutely ENRAGED that ANYONE would suggest such a thing. So the "wife thing" is shear and utter BUNK and a SMOKE SCREEN for what is REALLY going on in those homes. (I can't even begin to tell you what kind of tyrants we are dealing with in this forum, and again, many I KNOW PERSONALLY and the testimony from Indy about these men is 100% true.) The other thing Cult_Fighter is absolutely fit to be tied about is my supposedly telling him to "go to hell." Which I never once did. I told him and others here that coming against what God is doing is most certainly going to land them there. And if they don't want to change, what they deserve to get for how they have PERSECUTED the body of Christ like a band of pirate CUT-THROATS -- I would indeed, for the sake of Christ and how they continue to MURDER Him without conscience in here, be pleased to see their fate sealed. Many in here do not realize that by acting like Korah and being Korah's themselves, they deserve the same fate. ANYONE with a heart after God's -- of which I cannot even claim, but surely do WANT -- would feel the same way. But again, few in here would understand or care to understand Psalms 58 or the many other passages like them, written by a "man after God's own heart." God HATES the men of Jude 8-16, 2 Peter 2ff, 2 Tinothy 3 and other passages with a PASSION. And the men in women in here, unfortunately, do by and large represent those kinds of people. Cult_Fighter, you are one of them....

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:13 am:

4/28/2006: Another former victim, "First_Truth", emerges to tell his story about the cult. Another pretender (Dave T.) who didn't and doesn't want to "pay the price" emerges to fabricate and lie about and betray... 5/7/2006: Jen E posts internet information exposing some of the past history of Mike Peters. Jen, who has NEVER, EVER, EVER BEEN to Indianapolis or Columbus or met anyone on this thread from those churches, continues to post lie after lie and slanderous accusation after slanderous accusation. Someone with a computer in a living room 1000 miles away, who has fashioned for herself some "ministry" and "following" but hasn't the first idea what in the world she's talking about. She's also as far away from God as all the cats she keeps. :-( This person in particular absolutely defies description. Let's skip ahead a bit in Cult_Fighter's so-called "timeline" since the next several posts deal with further lies and people with bags over their heads regarding so-called "escorts" and "churches with relationships" and "finances" and other things that are either completely untrue or frankly none of anyone's business. No church in America would put up with these arrogant, self-entitled men busting in on them, either in real life or electronically, DEMANDING answers to their arrogant and prideful questions which are all based on their unrepentent sins (sin which causes men to be DECEIVED about themselves and others -- anyone remember God saying something about all that????!!!!!!) and pride and satanic arrogance... All of this has all been hashed and rehashed for 12 months anyway, so read it for yourself. Just don't be "duped," if you are just now joining us, into believing what someone with a bag over his head continues to "push" on you... (I will be signing this with my real name at the end.) 5/11/2006: Another past victim, "Gottapost", emerges to tell his story. He starts naming names of the Mike Peters group in Indianapolis, and asks questions about Mike and his (alleged) female traveling companions. Interesting that we should come to "GottaPost." Again, take Cult_Fighter's advice, please, and at least read my very first post on this thread regarding GottaPost and others here: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=300538#POST300538 (And again, continue to "digest" the "rules of engagement" here, dear reader. For your own benefit. If someone in SUPPORT of Indy posts anything more than a few sentences, than they are "long winded" and post "long verbose" posts. Never mind that those AGAINST Indy can ramble and ramble on and on and on about how "spiritual" he is -- Dennis!?!! -- or post something that would take 5-10 pages to print, and... you guessed it!!!! It's TOTALLY OKAY. Beginning to see a pattern emerge here???!!!!!! Did I mention again about how one-sided and self-serving these "rules of engagement" are???!!!)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:14 am:

6/9/2006: Chris Olive returns to tell Jen E that her husband has lied to her. He claims that he (Chris) was an eye witness to Dennis' departure from the Indianapolis group, but actually he had the facts entirely wrong. Again, more "slight of hand" and "smoke and mirrors" that the reader needs to accquaint himself with... If you happen to misrecall an unimportant detail, then they focus on stuff like THAT, rather than the overall TRUTH of the matter and WHAT THE POINT is. The POINT wasn't whether I recalled accurately the exact "family configuration" Dennis had when he was living in the same apartment complex as my own. THE POINT was and still is that I saw Dennis leaving -- packing his car and leaving when he knew no one else was around -- with my OWN TWO EYES. But again... Stuff like that -- the MAIN POINT -- is "diverted" by ridiculous "counter points" about me not remembering exactly if he was living with a group of single brothers or a family. That was 15 years ago. But it doesn't change what I saw in Dennis snakey, unspiritual character and the things which are INDELIABLY ENGRAINED in my memory concerning the things which DO matter and which DO constitute the MAIN POINT of this thread. But again, let's get the "rules of en-gag-ment" down here... Let's get it straight. if someone misrecall's an address or something or "it was snowing that day and you don't remember it" (as another person here put it in a private email exchange), then THAT is what is held up as the "slight of hand." Rather than the UNMISTABLY BAD and UNGODLY CHARACTER of the person which IS the point. So try to see through all of that, reader, while also keeping these "rules of en-gag-ment" in mind.... This is how these people "play games" and the very BEST example of MANY, ironically I should say, of EXACTLY WHY these people were asked to leave and why they are so incredibly angry (and lying through their teeth like no one's business.) Ironic that we have a contained example of the character of these people RIGHT HERE in these kinds of games. Which God doesn't play, which is why you all were asked to leave (or were never a part of the church, Tim Dennis, despite your erronous, false, and satanicl y deceptive claims.) We'll keep fast-forwarding here. I'm not going to rehash stuff I hashed through 6 months ago or more. 6/25/2006: Jen E informs that she has put Don Childs' excellent review of Mike Peters' book, "Meetings in His Kingdom" on her website. Speaking of "long and rambling..." Oh... My bad. I forgot the "rules." If someone AGAINST the church posts or says something, it's "excellent." If someone FOR the church posts or says something, it's "long and rambling" and "doesn't make sense." My bad... :-( What was that about Paul saying that to some God doesn't make any sense and seems "foolish" and to others it "makes sense?" What was that about Jesus saying "FEW will find it????" What was that about Peter saying that "the stone the BUIILDERS [the all knowing IMPORTANT 'religious people'] rejected" as heresy and FALSE, turned out to be the most important Truth of all??? I'm sorry. I'm not following the "rules" in here very well, am I? :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:15 am:

7/18/2006: Tim Dennis (aka "DanRepent") emerges and tells his story of past abuse from the Columbus branch of the group. As I've said and others have pointed out (and Tim's even "stuttered" over it -- "Oh, um, well, ahem, you see, what really happened is...")... TIM DENNIS WAS NEVER, EVER, EVER, ******EVER****** a part of the Columbus or Indianapolis churches. ***EVER***!!!!. DESPITE what he "claims." See the post from Dan Z. about Tim here. (Gee, Cult_Fighter... This seems kind of important....? I wonder how you overlooked this one in your "timeline" here???) The REAL story of Tim Dennis' "involvement" with the church in Columbus: http://www.factnet.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=3&post=339683#POST339683 7/25/2006: Tim D introduces the website he has created about the Mike Peters group: www.indianapoliscult.com Indeed. Very interesting for someone who has never been to Indianapolis, met Mike Peter's for 5 minutes one time, and was never, ever, ever a part of either church for one second of his life. Funny how THAT PERSON suddenly becomes the official "spokesperson" for these churches and what is "so-called" wrong with them. I guess we shouldn't mention here... okay I will... that nearly everything on the web "against" the church in Indianapolis has Tim Dennis behind it. Of course, every church has a few enemies, but Tim's out to make sure everyone thinks there are "many" for this church. When it's just lil' ol' Timmy building web sites and Google groups and Yahoo! groups as fast his little computer programmer fingers can type. We'll keep fast forwarding here. I'm not going to defend myself, esp. to accustions which come from twisted minds and who hate God and his ways. 8/7/2006: Mike R, yet another victim, emerges to tell his sad story of abuse from the Indy group. Mike R., who I know personally, and who is presently divorcing or has divorced his wife, has been chansing women and his own perverted fantasies, bar-hopping, drinking himself into alcoholism, and a list of other things that break God's heart, steps forward and gives his resentful, vengeful, "twist" on the facts. Again, see a pattern here, readers? Of course the CHARACTER of these men have ABSOLSUTELY NOTHING to do with their testimony. I mean, it COULDN'T BE that a God-fearing, God-loving, FAMILY-LOVING, group of believers is being UNLOADED on here on FactNet out of anger, hate, revenge and vendetta, couldn't it? I mean, there's no way!!! Their present and past condicion spiritually has absolutely NOTHING to do with it. And how so incredibly "unChristlike" of us to mention all this and expect that others walk in OBEDIENCE to Jesus and His teachings, huh???? I guess Mike should be allowed to cheat on his wife and his children and his God, and nothing be said about it???? Oh, I guess I shouldn't mention here.... okay I will.... that the angry ACCUSERS here are responsoible for the splitting of Mike's fmaily by infilttrating him and his children with theire endless lies...!!!! :-( Don't be NAIVE, readers. The VERY THINGS they accuse the churches here of are the VERY THINGS they themselves are actually doing. Family-splitting? Never been done in the history of the churches here. But these accusers have a track record of this. "Mike R. emerges" indeed... :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:16 am:

8/9/2006: Tim Szazynski emerges to tell his sad, sad story! Tim is a man whose wife and children (still in the cult) are openly "withholding affection" from their husband and father -- under the direction and teachings of Mike Peters. Same thing folks. Timmy (again, I know Tim personally) has recently strapped a spiritual bomb purse to his torso and is pulling the cord with his wife and family and anyone else he can find in close proximity, attempting to blow them and everyone else up with him. He's as loveless as anyone I know, but hey, again, HERE it's ALL ABOUT how the "wife should submit to the husbamd" and when someone suggests otherwise, then THEY are the "ones splitting families." The HUSBAND can live like a cloned son of hell, and it matters not (and the wife MUST "SUBMIT!!!!"). They are the "victims" on this twisted year long thread of hate. Again, anyone see a pattern here??????? Well, we'll keep fast forwarding since a lot of the rest of Cult_Fighter's so called "timeline" is ALL ABOUT this twist from hell (and another gospel) which states that a woman must submit to her husband while he "claims" to be a "follower" but lives, as I said, like a cloned son of hell. He can cheat on her, fantasize about others, treat his children and his household like adopted slum rats from San Paolo, drink, divorce, and essentially run the gammit of OBSERVABLE SINS in Galatians 5:19ff (some of them act like they are going for them all), and... "THE WIFE HAS TO SUBMIT!!!!!!" And they are ANGRY with those the advise the wife that she has a convenant with the God of the Universe to keep FIRST!!!! So, we'll skip ahead, since Cult_Fighter clearly, clearly, CLEARLY belongs in the "cloned son of hell" category since he CONDONES that kind of "interpretation" of God's Word that way....... This men could bring a harem into their homes (and in spirit or electronically, most have), and "the wife MUST SUBMIT!!!!" and also continue to "have warm feelings" towards their sin-filled, bar-hopping, womenizing, sexually perverted husbands... Anyone want to go home with Jen or Dennis or Tim (any of them) or Mike R. or Cult_Fighter (Alan) or any of the other ones yet??? How about it??? Anyone??? Anyone want to be married to any of them????? Or be a child of any of them?????? Be my guest. When you believe what they say here and have been saying here, you have become one of their children and followers of them. I'm here to tell you, I've SEEN what they are capable of and it AIN'T PRETTY.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:18 am:

8/12/2006: Elizabeth Nelson comes forward to share her story -- including Mike's advice to her that she potentially divorce her husband. This is part of a continuing emphasis on Mike Peters' strange relationships with the women of his cult. You know, again, this is one piece of Cult_Fighter's advice I can ask you all to follow. Go ahead and READ THE POSTINGS concerning Elizabeth Nelson. Now, Elizabeth, as must as it's confusing and makes no sense to anyone, can do whatever she wants to do. She can reverse her position if she wants. But at ONE POINT AND TIME, folks, she admitted to having A LOT fo super scary things going on in her household with her truck driving husband. Things involving serious porn, sexual perversions and potential child molestation going on in her home. She was right THEN to be very, very concerned about it. if she wants to ignore all that now, or pretend it didn't exist (if it's all better now, which is questionable, but COULD be), that's her business. But.... Again, it's absolutely mind-boggling to think that people like this would sit on and preach and insist on "submitting to husbands" when there are serious, serious, SERIOUS issues in a home like this that even PAGANS would not even hesitate to separate family members from and DO NOT hesitate to do so. This is something I haven't touched on with the "rules of en-gag-ment" thing, but you should understand that all of the people here accusing the churches are so deluded by their sins and so deceived and have such hard hearts, ignorant of God's word (though "they claim to be wise"... Hmmmmmm, where have I heard THAT phrase before????), that even PAGANS have better judgement and better ability to decide and execute justice than the people here do. You wanna know what it looks like when God "gives people up to their own lusts"???? Look no farther than this forum. These people actually believe with all their hearts they are RIGHT and OKAY to reason and think and preach as they do. That it's OKAY for a man to live like a son of hell (such that pagans that HAVE been involved all seem to agree with the churches accused here), but "THE WIFE ***MUST*** SUBMIT!!!" These kinds could run concentration camps (and for some, their households aren't far from that), and the wife would "STILL HAVE TO SUBMIT!!!!" Now THAT is a CLASSIC picture of "ones given over."

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:19 am:

8/16/2006: Tim Sz talks about the trend of the group's wives who show no affection to their husbands. Hmmmmmmmm, let me think about this. Would my wife feel warm and loving and affectionate towards me if she knew I was on the internet fantasizing about other women, or was a drunk, or was bar-hopping trying to pick up women, or treated my children and household like scabbed-over little disease carrying refuges from Vietnam, or filtered all our finances in my own direction while my children slept on the floor, or when we were together, treated me like some prostitute??? Well, maybe I'm wrong for thinking that she wouldn't have a warm bone her body for me.... :-( And all the while, the churches accused here, have pushed, pushed, PUSHED these women to continue LOVING THESE SPIRITUALLY-BANKRUPT and hell-living husbands, and for the most part they ABSOLSUTELY DO. (I know them personally.) They pour out their lives on these spiritual sacks of potatoes (for now --- they can CHANGE and MUST!!!!!), and THEY are the ones who are raked over the coals as "unloving." Again, we see clear evidence here of men and women who are "given over to their own delusions...." To live however they want to live and accuse however they want to accuse. But the FACTS in these situations CANNOT be altered. These men live like BEASTS OF INSTINCT in their households, and no WONDER Jude says the same thing about people who take these kinds of "stances" on things. They prove that they too are "beasts of instinct" as Jude says. Who can take part in things meant for real Love and who "without the SLIGHTEST QUALM" can advocate the things they advocate here and LIE without the slightest twitch to their consciences -- "which have been seared as with a hot iron." 8/24/2006: Chris O explains why the Indy group blocks open internet access to their followers. He also explains why Mike P tells his followers to avoid certain Indianapolis stores. Indy doesn't "do" anything that millions and millions of Americans do all over the US. Pagans and believers alike. These attacks on "how they do business" is ONLY because it doesn't matter WHAT these people do, it's always "weird" and "cultic." Read my responses mainly to Jen Elslager in particular but which are applicable to the entire brood of vipers in here.... It doesn't matter WHAT these people do, "they are a cult." Forget about the fact that their internet connections and protections, etc. are identicial to what millions of people do in their own homes (or WOULD if they had the techincal skill to pull it off -- which many more who WOULD, don't....)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:22 am:

8/24/2006: Tim Sz gives a "tour" of the Indy groups' neighborhoods. He gives an accurate (but cultic) description of the way his wife Cathy feels about him – pointing out that she compares him to the evil Muslim husband in the movie, “Not Without My Daughter” (this is a common thing among the group's women). Tim also tells the story of when his indoctrinated love-withholding teenage daughter told him (her father) to "Die, die, die!" But again, no picture is painted about how Tim's daughter was provoked to this outburst by his reckless and Godless life, huh? Another "rule of en-gag-ment"... Let's cover them all. "Only present ONE SIDE of any story and make sure that it's the saide that makes Indy and Mike look like idiots and 'cultists.'" Forget about when God talks about causing "one of these little ones to stumble" or "fathers PROVOKE NOT your children to wrath?" What did Jesus say? Who would get the millstone tied around his/her neck? Here on FactNet, the CHILD and the WIFE gets the millstone tied around THEIR necks. :-( The invitation is still open.... Anyone willing to go home with any of these -- Jen, Dennis, Tim (either one), Mike R., Tim Szaz,, Cult_Fighter, etc. -- and LIVE with them for an extended period of time..... Go ahead. The door is open. 8/25/2006: Chris Olive attacks Tim Sz. He then angrily calls all of his critics “Satanically drunk” and says they have “hatred for the very life of Jesus”. I didn't "attack" Tim (scroll back for "rules" on how to apply "attackER" and "attackEE" "reasoning"). But I stand by what I said. If anyone reading this wants to defend the sons of hell that these people in here want to defend and use (without care or concern for those situations, since presently those situations work in their favor, while we grieve and mourn for their decisions, knowing and loving them and their children with whom we have lived for years) to "prove" their "points" then you too are in that category. Sorry. I'm only telling you how GOD feels about it and the spiritual devestation and wrecking these people want to propogate and HAVE propogated.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:23 am:

8/25/2006: Discussion about the unfriendly “No Soliciting” signs on the doors of most Indy group member homes. Which people all over America use and have a write to use. My "swanky" suburb in a major metopolitan city HANDED THEM OUT TO US WHEN WE MOVED IN. So WHAT"S THE POINT???? Oh, I forgot. It only matters to make these people look like a "cult" even if they do what millions of other Americans do. Or don't. Whichever makes them look like what you want them to look like, pick THAT option. Oh, let's skip ahead a little. Make sure and read all these posts intead of believing Cult_Fighter and Devil_Liars "white man" rendition of the "taking of the west" from the "savage, blood-thirsty, treaty breaking Amarican Indians." Never mind that they were pushed over the brink by the white man and when "one word" was offered or someone stood up for themselves, that was "all the excuse" the white man needed to wipe them all out. Remember that newspaper clipping we talked about at the beginning....???? :-) :-( :-( Let's move on.... 8/29/2006: Dave Szazinski emerges to bash his own brother (Tim). Dave shows he is more loyal to his church friends than to his own real family. Dave criticizes Tim’s desire for a divorce. Dave also repeats the “Not Without My Daughter” charge. (In fairness, it is later learned that Tim Sz does indeed legally divorce his wife -- a move which is strongly disagreed with by BOTH sides of this debate.) Let me just rephrase this for how God sees all this since Cult_Fighter only cares about HIS view and NOT God's. (Hmmmmmm, ironically, that's what A LOT of this is all about....): "Dave Szazynski emerges to stand by his brother, Jesus, when his physical brother decides to rebel and sin against Jesus by forskaing his family, his wife, and God Himself. This is just what Jesus asked Dave and others to do in situations where a choice has to be made between someone blood related and following Him. [Insert every scripture Jesus ever utter concerning following Him here.] Dave wisely shows that he is more loyal to Jesus than to anyone else -- regardless of who they are, 'family' or not. Dave exposes Tim's propensity to live for himself and alienate other people from God by his example, and that this was and has been a prominent feature in Tim's life for a long, long time. From the time they were little -- well before ever meeting 'Mike Peters.' Dave correctly asserts, using the visual aid of a movie, Tim's totalitarian but basically loveless rule over his household, and how sickening it is that Tim still expects the 'loyality' of those around him, asking them to side with open, obvious, and rebellious sin, instead of siding with Jesus, which everyone has a first obligation to do, according to God, Jesus, Paul, John, Peter, and others so annointed by God." Oh, and PLEASE don't let Cult_Fighter's statement lead you to believe that he cares ONE IOTA about "divorce" or "family"!!!! Not with what he defends and postulates here on FactNet and most certainly not with the filth he watches at home privately (or so he thinks) and "reviews" and "recommends" to others, which would well divide any God loving family..... It's all documented on the internet, Cult_Fighter's perversions.... Oh!!! My bad again.... Cult_Fighter is still punching people with a BAG OVER HIS HEAD, so you can't verify what I am saying here..... That's too bad. :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:24 am:

9/18/2006: Chris O says that FactNet criticism of the Indy group is a “predecessor” to real, physical persecution. Well, indeed, let the reader judge for himself. What do you suppose people like this who defend sin and lie and fabricate and bribe (or try to) and tie millstones around children's and wive's necks.... What do you suppose people like that are capable of, hmmmmmm??? Well, I'll let YOU decide. Skipping ahead and not re-iterating stuff I've already posted tons about... Mostly stuff that gets under Cult_Fighter's skin. 9/27/2006: Dan Z posts Mike’s “marital sex is good” essay, but then forgets to address Mike’s “withholding affection” doctrine. And Cult_Fighter forgets to address the KINDS of people Mike suggests might not be deserving of affection for a while. As any pagan would conclude after long periods of bar-hopping, women chasing, child abandoning (potential molesting in some cases), and a list of serious sexually perverted sins and personality "bents" a mile long. One good "omission" deserves another, doesn't it, Alan? 9/28/2006: Mike’s “secret emails” discussion explodes! And is kept alive, even as late as this last week -- when no one's posted about it in a month -- by Cult_Fighter. This just drives this guy insane...! :-( Do I need to post about the bar-hopping, women chasing, divorce seeking, filthy-minded, perverted husbands AGAIN??? Okay I won't. Scroll up, readers....

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:26 am:

10/4/2006: The first “secret email to another man’s wife” is pointed out – ON MIKE’S WEBSITE (see his “Authority” teaching). Mike ends this email (to another man’s wife) with “Love, mike”. Huh....? I wonder if there were reasons why JESUS' ACCUSERS associated him with prostitutes and sinners, or if this way of "viewing" things was anything like the way Pharisees "viewed" Jesus when the woman came and -- very INTIMATELY, I might add -- washed Jesus feet with her hair. Or why the early Christians were often accused of being "perverted" and "incestuous"??? "They used the word 'Love' with.....!!!! Did you HEAR THAT????" Most of the guys in here act like a bunch of gossipy high school boys who take every word to mean something it's not. Or bunch of punk, bullying high school boys who KNOW GOOD A WELL what certain words mean in context, but because they are a bunch of THUGS who whip each other into a FRENZY before they grab some plumbing pipe and beat someone senseless due to their own blood thirstiness, they "twist" words to mean something they know good and well that it doesn't...... But asl ong as the "end justifies the means...." Meanwhile, maybe even Chuck Colson has some idea of women, love, and how Jesus treated women and loved them PROPERLY (without an IOTA of impurity), but people still thought He was "perverted." People who WANTED to believe such things. Interesting how perverted "suggestions" about Jesus and Mary Mag and illegitimate children persist even to this DAY, some even being skillful enough to go for the BIG MONEY and parlay those accusations into multi-million dollar movies: (Hopefully this link is still live): http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/charles_w_chuck_colson/2007/01/obviously_i_cannot_speak_for.html Skipping ahead again since the next 20 points are on Cult_Fighter's "favorite" but non-existant "peeve." 11/5/2006: “Skeza2505” emerges to tell her story of life in the cult – from a child’s point of view. She points out the over-emphasis in the cult on “sin, sin, sin”. Well... "Skeza" (rhymes with "Lisa") has a good reason for feeling that way since she and her family decided to continue living in obvious sins and loving the world. Hopefully all that has changed with them all, but judging from some places "skeza2505" signs in on the internet, sadly, it appears not... :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:27 am:

11/7/2006: Chris Olive tells Gottapost, Tim D, Jen, and others that they are going to hell and that he’s anxious for that! Essentially, Chris is telling Mike Peters' critics to “Go to hell!” Well, nooo.... That's "essentially" what Cult_Fighter "hears" and wants everyone to believe. Thers is a distinct difference between WISHING someone would "go to hell" and DELIGHTING in God and his children finally being VINDICATED, as David did. Again, read Psalms 58 very carefully. And other passages like them in the OT and NT. DELIGHTING in God's vindication (which will entail some going to everlasting punishment, and God lovers will be GLAD) while still "loving your enemies"????!!!! Wow. Only Jesus can be all those things all at once, huh??? It'll CONFOUND anyone else.... Like Cult_Fighter. There's still time, you know, Alan.... Skipping ahead, since all the "spankings" stuff and "abuse" is bunk too and is already covered in the threads. Cult_Fighter again just does a "white man's" timeline here.... :-( 11/7/2006: “Sigh” (Mike Peters?) goes to A NEW LOW when he appears to attack an 8-year-old girl (Lisa) for “very serious sexual sin” committed years ago, when she was a child. He further tries to intimidate her by threatening to “arrange a polygraph test”. (Lisa explains this “sin” was a mutually-consented-to childish game -- long-ago confessed, repented of, and forgiven by God). One thing you'll notice here, readers, here and in a ZILLION other places.... None of the accusers on this thread really cares a lick about sin or what it does or the consequences (some of which they have experienced -- oh my! THAT'S that this is about!!!! Ohhhhhh!!!!!), or how it makes ***GOD*** feel, or ANYTHING like that. Notice the "quotes" around the word "sin" above..... See, this whole thing is about a HOLY and RIGHTEOUS and EXPECTANT GOD!!!!!!!! "Sin" is only a "theory" with these people. IF someone were to do something super horrendous... like act "unChristlike" and CONFRONT someone.... then.... THEN!!!! it's SIN. But people can sleep around, or wish they could, bar hop, and all the other stuff I've mentioned countless times that the accusers THEMSELVES engage in or HAVE engaged in AT THE TIME THEY DRAW FROM THEIR SO CALLED ACCUSATIONS, and it's all "water under the bridge" and they quote a brand of "cheap grace" that wouldn't even have cost Christ a hang nail. And it's IMPOSSIBLE to get them to see the absolute relevance of things they WERE DOING since these who accuse draw their "testimonies" from the times they were engaged in their various forms of prostitution, being it prositution with the world, with fantasizes, with money, or fame, or ambition, or literal prostitution (in some cases.) Skipping ahead....

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:28 am:

11/16/2006: “Redm1sk”, another victim, emerges to tell her sad story. She says her still-in-the-cult daughter is totally withholding affection (and contact) from her. Most alarming, she tells of when Mike Peters told his followers to “keep your passports current and ready”. "RedMask" (Sandy) emerges to slander and bear-false witness. I think I've got this "cowboy and indian" history telling thing down pat, Cult_Fighter.... :-( 11/25/2006: Tim Dennis lists 6 websites used for the Mike Peters group's recruiting. Law #7 of the "Law of Eight" that the accusers in here adhere to in "rules of en-gag-ment"... "Only report those thing that make them look like THEY are the cult. Don't by any means mention that WE are putting up web site after web site and blog after blog, with TERMENDOUS energy to make sure our sites sit at the top of Google search results, about Mike Peters and trying to recruit people to our point of view. Don't say a WORD about the fact they there are an equal if greater number of places WE OURSELVES have created to make sure people get a whiff of the pantheon of lies we've constructed -- just us handful of '10 angry men' -- to try and DESTROY that which has caused us so much harm." I think YOU have this "cowboy and indian" retelling of history down pat, Cult_Fighter.... We'll keep skipping the redundant parts... 12/6/2006: “Baxter”, “Nintai”, First_Truth”, and Jen E’s anonymous friend conduct discussion on the group's practice of judging each other’s thoughts, on leaven, and the group's "caste system". Yes, sadly a few more anonymous talking heads show up. Completely shaking their fists at God and how HE said to handle things by STEPPING FORWARD with REAL NAMES and the TRUTH instead of trumped up charges. For all you history buffs out there.... Have you EVER NOTICED how "trumped up charges" and "anonymous talking heads" kinda "go together" throughout history. Have you ever noticed the two most prevalent tactics used by satan in trying to bring down God's kingdom? (1) Throw rocks from the shadows. No names, no truth, no justice, no "due process." Hang 'em and ask questions later. OR....! (2) Be bold enough and pretentious enough to state your name (as Jen and Dennis Elslager do and did) but then SCREAM FOUL loud enough and terrorize people enough to make them believe you. Tactic 1 is used by the cowardly and Tactic 2 is used by the brazen and those without a conscience. In the case of the later and Dennis and Jen, we find that there are some who sniff them out. And of course.... pay the price. "Indianapolis" isn't the only ones, by the way. (Some grew so tired of the Elslager's brazen "bullying" and use of the internet to "take people hostage" that they actually relentent to SUING the Elslagers, a show of force the only thing these demonic creatures of instinct understand.)

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:29 am:

Note: This was Chris Olive’s last post. Apparently, he was told by his superiors to log off. SURPRISE!!! :-) :-( Oh, bummer.... I forgot to ask Mike again, like I did all the other times I posted 100% in my own because I know from first hand experience what you guys are all about, if I could post. It's unnerving isn't it, to think that maybe, just maybe all the "control" was just about your SINS, and that Indianapolis and Columbus (and a zillion other places we know) is about an army of people rising who know Jesus WELL and aren't going to put up with clear and open sin and willful REBELLION while carrying the CLOAK of PRETENSE and "Jesus' name tag" while you fleece the flock. That's pretty disconcerting, isn't it? How a normal average WOMAN, Tim Dennis, could see through your charade of pretense and wanting to "teach and lead" people, while it was and still is obvious that you life is STILL in the grip of perverted, lusty, sensual game playing, movie watching, and who knows what else. (Documentable on the internet, folks.....) Ohhhh, so THAT'S what this is about....!!! :-( It's tremedously HARD isn't it to know from which direction the gale force wind will blow unless you become LIKE the wind, isn't it? I'm not try to play "proud" here, readers, only let you know that a unified group of people who DON'T need "instruction" (as John said) and who don't need "control" and who DON'T need to "check in" but can SEE, SEE, **SEE** through these kind of garbaged, pretentious lives, is TERRIFYING to these people. Not to mention "incomprehensible." But it's what Jesus always wanted and is EVERY MAN'S DESTINY (including THEIRS, if they would live HUMBLY instead of PRIDEFULLY). 12/15/2006: Mike Peters' critics say only good things about Kathy Peters. But continue to crucify her "one flesh" in her husband. Huh? And I thought you guys were "advocates" of strong families and marriages and not dividing? I'm confused.... :-( Is this any kind of clue to the CONFUSION these guys have in their hearts and minds regarding Jesus, Love, Family, Marriage, TRUE Submission (and not this slavery and allowance of sin that is CALLED "submission"), Truth, Fellowship, Disfellowship, etc.?

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:30 am:

12/17/2006: Paul & Missy (Indy group apologists) begin “What is Slander?” discussion, which ends up pointing right back at Mike Peters. Wow, I wonder how THAT happened? Skipping ahead over more talking heads (some are "sock puppets" that have taken on new identities now)... We continue what is actually GROWTH in the "anonymous accusations" and rock throwing. Kinda hard for people to know the validity of these lives and testimonies or even the truth of them when they DON'T KNOW WHO YOU ARE, isn't it??? Ohhhhhh, but THAT'S THE POINT, isn't it??? Ironic, when this church was originally crucified initially for being so 'anonymous" (but then they have 6 web sites, supposedly according to Tim Dennis, and they ALL have contact information on them.) Oh well, more evidence of that "rules of en-gag-ment" I've been telling you about (and you really didn't need me to -- it's do OBVIOUS to anyone with half-an-ounce of God inside of them.) 12/26/2006: Denny E points out that Mike Peters promotes a movie (“The Matrix”) that was inspired by Buddhism. But no mention of the "inspiration" for some of the movies, games and forms of "entertainment" (we'll just call it "that" for now) that many of these accusers watch and ENJOY. ***ENJOY***. Yet what the people in Indianapolis "got out" of that movie (in VERY edited form!!!) was and is CLEARLY documented at http://www.NeedAnExit.com And I don't WANT to hear about what you are "getting out" of your sensual game, movie, and internet time. And no need to indicate the "inspiration" for those, do we???? Skipping ahead.... 1/3/2007: Tim D posts the story from another victim. Tim gleefully postulates another "anonymous rock thrower" as a "victim." No idea whether it's made up, or someone angry and bitter as these guys are (but of course deny...!), or anything else about their lives AGAIN. Character doesn't matter. Whether someone is ACTUALLY and VERIFIABLY faithful to God in their witness doesn't matter. Tim paints his sickening web site as a "place so the world will know" but no one really does know, do they, Tim????

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:31 am:

1/10/2007: Tim D posts letter from Gene Fredette, who knew Mike Peters before he came to Indianapolis. Tells that Mike “ruined” his past church in Vermont. Well, I've been out of the loop for a while, haven't I? Well, "Gene" originally

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Rick Ross's rigged web site (where people can be attacked, but if you "get there first" and someone tries to attack YOU, then that person is BANNED by Rick and his rwisted sense of "justice" -- so much for being a "cult" expert when he won't allow "the other side of the story" to be told. Anyone believe God when he says men are wicked TO THE CORE and PERVERTED??? Anyone understand why David CRIED within his bones for God's JUSTICE to be metted out to the oppressed and those treated unfairly and unjsutly by proud and arrogant men who postualte themselves as "experts" like Rick???) Well, the Truth of Mike's "exit" from Vermont was that the elders BEGGED him to stay. Of COURSE, as we can see here, there were SOME there who obviously didn't like Mike. But I would say that the expression of there "opinions" doesn't necessarily paint the full picture and is just that --- their OPINIONS. And doesn't necessarily mean that thay was EVERYONE'S opinion of Mike there and during that time. In fact, I would say that the ELDERS of that church -- one an executive with GE and one and executive with IBM -- ***PROBABLY*** represents the view of the MAJORITY in the church at that time, and is decided NOT the same as Gene's. Incidentally, you guessed it... Not that there is a need to "find dirt" on anyone -- only a need to be Truthful about motives so OTHER PEOPLE can judge for themselves.... There is a REASON for Gene's "disgust" for Mike. See Gene's "persuasion," as I understand it is described in Romans 1. Kind of a "deeply dark" sin that is rapidly gripping our nation at all levels. So Gene's got a good reason to not like Mike and make it "seem like" EVERYONE didn't like Mike, and he just doesn't want to "come out of the closet" with the real reasons why. Sorry folks, but you all asked for this stuff. Nobody had to wrote a WORD about Dennis, or Tim, or Mike, or Gene or ANYONE. But if you want to discuss WHY you were thrown out of a church, then we ARE now discussing WHY. :-( Blame some of your so-called "cult expert" friends too, who are now long gone (Aging_Mom, FYI, and others) for stroking the fire.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:34 am:

1/17/2007: “Rob W” emerges to tell of how he became aware, upon careful investigation, the Mike Peters-led group was a cult. Rob sees a few things like someone watching a football game through a picket fence, and suddenly he's "on to something" and very unwisely posts slander (which he will one day have to answer for.) No one here is disputing that the folks in Indy build a different way. Just because something strikes you as "weird" doesn't mean it's unGodly or a cult. If you want to know the Truth, God says that from our perspectives, HE is "weird." That's how he ought to strike us sometimes. Most people thought Jesus was weird and completely off his rocker. You lie if you can read the NT and not think that some things are just "weird" that Jesus said or did (or you aren't putting yourself into those situations or you are naive.) Again, Rob sees a few things through a picket fence -- and he himself mentions people anonymously -- and suddenly someone's a "cult." And Augusta Harding has NO IDEA what she is talking about. I know of other Godly men in other places who totally disagree with her and her husband. And if Augusta and her husband "deal" like the other "expert" Rick Ross, well, it's no wonder.... I'm confident Rob would NEVER put up with testimony like this about HIS group in Indy -- with people taking stabs them based on things that they have "seen" in spotty situations. But he apparently thinks whereever there is "smoke" there is "fire" just because a few things struck him as "weird." That's too bad. 1/18/2007: Karl (former friend of Tim D) logs in to attack Tim and defend the Columbus group. Weirdly, he accuses Elizabeth N of “murder”. Boy, that testimony os worth reading again and sounds amazingly like what Dan Z. had been trying to say -- that Tim Dennis is and was an IMPOSTER and had absolutely NOTHING TO DO with the Columbus church. Notice how by a few posts after Karl's posting, it's back to "business as usual" and Karl's post is essentially "ignored." 1/19/2007: “Cult_fighter” strongly refutes Karl’s “facts” with 7 well-established facts about the evils of Mike Peters and his cult. Cult_Fighter only recites all the lies he and others have been stating all along and used the word "FACTS" when he describes them.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:35 am:

1/22/2007: “Mike Peters & Jim Jones: Ten Similarities” is posted. Clearly, Peters and Jones have many scary resemblances. Hey guys, c'mon...!! You left out the part where I describe all the similarities between you guys and Korah, Balaam, Jannes and Cain (who was a MURDERER, so maybe Karl_B was right after all in mentioning that since that's how God sees this kind of thing... Hmmmmmmm?????). Jude 8-16, 2 Peter 2, 3 Timothy 2, Nehemiah, etc. You know, I watched the same documentary, Cult_Fighter, and there are NO SIMILARIES between Mike and JJ. NONE. JJ was very obviously a filthy, sexually perverted, deviant child molseter that actually fits more in line with some of the lifestyles of the accusers in here than he does in any way Mike Peters. Also the fact that he desired prominence and a following and money and worship, adoration and attention is WAY more like many in here, MOST ESPECIALLY DENNIS ELSLAGER and TIM DENNIS -- and that is what this is ALL about -- than it does anyone in Indianapolis or Columbus. No one in Indianapolis or Columbus would have anything to DO with someone like JJ, which again segways perfectly into why they didn't want to have anything to do with you guys and your fake alter calls (praticing to be like someone like JJ, Dennis????), and seduction of women and teenage girls and the like that everyone could see through from a mile away.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:36 am:

2/13/2007: Discussion on Indy group's version of evangelism. Conclusion is they don’t reach out to the truly “lost”, but only to the “lost sheep” – Christians in other (attendance-based) churches. Oh boy... :-( Every member of the body in the Indianapolis [and Columbus and other people in relationship with others there] take very seriously, every day, their relationship to the unsaved and beckoning them into the Kindgom of God. There is seldom a single meal eaten without a complete unbeliever's name mentioned or situation brought before God like that amongst many such meals taking place three times daily -- brothers gathering for lunch downtown or in other places often, sisters at home praying for the co-workers of husbands and people they meet while out shopping, etc. So the occurance of that kind of thing probably takes place in every member's home or lunch or dinner situation daily. That means 10, 20 or 30 or more sitations every day since there aren't just a handful of the "10% committed" working on "evangelism" in the church there, but everyone [including every single teenager -- 100%!!] takes that kind of thing seriously. Often cards are left laying around, cashiers are engaged in conversations about their souls, and any number of other things like that happen DAILY all over the city. This church has their eyes and hearts on the unsaved and unbelievers always, ready to open up about God's good news but yet completely "unevangelical" in the sense that they "push" anything. "As if God were making His appeal through us" is the redemptive attitude in every situation. This recent slanderous and hateful allegation states that the All At His Feet web site is the only "portal" into their lives and that it only deals with people already in "church building" situations. Again, it's so obvious on the very first page of that web site that that is NOT the case, that again, it makes it clear that people who make such allegations have only one agenda in mind and that is to try and slander and tear down something that threatens them and that they cannot see or comprehend with their blind "eyes" and stopped up "ears" and Jesus stated. The very first and front page of the All At His Feet web site states SPECIFICALLY the following or two different sections -- those who haven't yet fallen at Jesus' feet, so obviously geared COMPLETELY to unbelievers, and those who have. So again, the accusations are only coming from hateful, threatened, ugly people with no life in Christ when it's OBVIOUS from the front page that that is most certainly NOT the case as well as how I know from living there how every single member conducts himself with respect to the lost. There is seldom a meal eaten, a bathroom break taken, or a trip taken where materials and conversations aren't left in every place possible, entreating the lost. And this is to say nothing of the fact that the number of web sites they have that deal with the lost out number the sites they do have appealing to existing "church goers" 2.5 to 1. That's more than double. It's saddening beyond description the depths some people [again only the same handful, out banging their pots to sound "bigger"] will go to to discredit others and who could care less how many people they take down into the pit with themselves by their outlandish and hate-filled lies. :-( Their "spirits" speak volumes.

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Tuesday, February 27, 2007 - 2:38 am:

2/27/2007: Wirklichmir reappears without checking with Mike again (oh dear!) and posts the Truth about Cult_Fighter's twisted, preverted and LONG "white man re-writing of history" concerning the activity of this forum. Well, see y'all again in 6 months or whenever... :-( ChrisO wirklichmir144@yahoo.com PS. You're an evil, wicked, prideful, arrogant and very deceived man, Cult_Fighter... :-(

Username: WirklichMir

Posted on Thursday, March 15, 2007 - 12:38 am:

Baxter: You're a wicked, evil, demon. And have been proving that here for some time. I can name 6-7 *men* that Mike is in DAILY, DEEP, INTIMATE and SUMISSIVE contact and has been for 25 plus years. I've seen him submit to others (out of reverence for Christ) in countless situations. Is he one of SEVERAL leaders there? YES. But I've also seen him come across many situations where decisions have been made by others (not even other leaders, but simple, honest believers in Yeshua) and he never even questions it. You've been on this board for some months now -- cowardly and anonymously, opening your boastful, proud and arrogant mouth, lying, twisting, contorting and slandering in proportions that are impossible to even describe. I've never addressed you personally -- and I'd venture to say that if you came out of the darkness into the Light and had the courage to take the bag off of your head, I bet it would be instantly recognizable to me exactly what your hateful motives are. But that's not likely to happen since the tenor of this "forum" has long since shown it's hand. But you deserve, and everyone else who may be silently reading this, deserves to know you are one of the darkest liars and one of the most pathetic creatures I have ever come across. Certainly a lot of you in here take turns out doing the other with your sick, evil, repulsive, deceptive, satanic vomit. You are in grave, grave spiritual danger dude. The things you say about Mike and others here -- again with a sickening, cowardly bag over your head (go ahead and continue to artfully play the "victim" here) -- is sickening beyond description. Not just because they are completely untrue, but because of the sickening satanic spirit behind it. :-( I loathe "getting things going" again in here with a post like this (which will cause another 6 months of hateful, vengeful out-pouring again, I can almost guarantee it), but be it Mike or anyone else that I know with a deep, rich and COMPLETELY HUMBLE walk in Christ, slandered as **YOU** have been doing for months now, I have to say at least something. Your words are poison. ChrisO

Username: chriso

Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 2:56 pm:

Not that I think very many others in the world are reading here anyway, but... Danielle, Allen and others in here who are still satanically drunk on their own opinions: First of all no one from these churches has acted in any way remotely close to anyone in Scientology, although of course to those "who call good 'evil' and evil 'good'," your views here have and will continue to differ quite a bit. Hitler and his henchmen, in particular Josef Mengele, also known as the "angel of death," were not the craven "mad men" outwardly that many have made them out to be. Rather, they were extremely "well mannered" and "put together" while they "politely" lead people to their deaths. Mengele in particular had all the children he heiniously experimented upon call him with various terms of endearment ("Onkle", etc.). He passed out candy to them and "doted" on them, and even told them to "Shutup!" in a very calm voice even as they were marching in line to their deaths. Right up to the gas chamber doors, literally. Others including Hitler were known to be men of extreme outward "doting" and "affection" even to people they were within moments of killing. See, it's not always the outward display necessarily that is the issue ("anger" versus "calm"), but the very issue itself of Truth and True Knowledge of Jesus of which none of you in here have. Jesus took the time to weave a whip together, it seems, and angrily sack everyone in the Temple. Jesus said some very "ugly" and "unChristian things" to the LEADERS of his day (whose idea of "respect" and what was "right to say" and "how to say it" was very different from Jesus' according to scriptures.) As did Paul, as did Peter, as did John and others... They "said" some things to other people that those people (and some around them with self-established definitions of "love" etc.) would have constrewed as "angry" or "hateful" or "unChristlike"... But it was God's heart and really an extension of Grace to say and do what they did and HOW they did it. "Love REJOICES in the TRUTH." Love is BASED in Truth. And it's not always spoken "politely" as some of you in here would count "politeness" and "rightness" (like the Nazis). God is VERY EXTREMELY angry with people such as yourselves in here (Jen, Dennis, Tim Dennis, Allen, "Baxter", Danielle, etc. -- the "same ol', same ol' little old handful" in here) described in Jude, 2 Peter, 2 Timothy 3 and other places. The fact that none of you in here understand the differences or are "able to discern the signs of the times" or "you do not know God nor the scriptures" (though you "study" and "blog" about them all the time, or "rant" about your so-called "knowledge" in here) as Jesus said, is EXACTLY why all this has taken place in the first place -- because you guys DON'T know Jesus, aside from what you "claim" for yourselves (STILL from behind anonymous masks, most of you!) But again, others in the world, not just in these churches, who have spent any time with you all, have come to see that and what your lives are REALLY like (in real life and not from behind this facade of the electronic world of pretense called the "internet") and in relatively short order.

Username: chriso

Posted on Thursday, May 17, 2007 - 2:57 pm:

So, again, it's not an issue of "angry" versus "not angry" and all the other little "smoke screens" you guys put up in here and have been postulating for over a year. You all have very much shown yourselves to be every bit as capable of "sounding polite" and "sweet" and "caring" as Josef Mengele while "politely" leading people right up to the spiritual gas chamber doors and dropping the spiritual cyanide tabulets. :-( The "politeness" and the smoke screens and the "double speak" while you "calmly" dismember people in here is what makes it all the more diabolical, as with the Nazis. It wasn't just WHAT they did but HOW they did it that made that period of time so utterly despicable, sickening and gross. As with you all in here. You try to "paint" people a certain way and yourselves the other, all the while destroying their lives with your lies every bit as diabolically as a good number of others in history have done in the physical realm. ChrisO chris.olive@comcast.net (formerly WirklichMir144@yahoo.com)

Username: chriso Post Number: 1 /

each other with similar findings. bruised.baxter@gmail.com"

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 1:51 pm:

Oh good grief, allen... :-( If this so-called "big thing" you are talking about is some "magazine writer" who has been in cahoots for months already with the dark and evil cabal here on FactNot and whose only so-called "objective perspective" and "source material" has come from all of you...(!!) So what?? How does THAT "prove" anything? The authorities are well-aware that the liars and porn-watchers and people with documentable histories of mental-illness here, and child-support frauds, and (real) family splitters, and wife and child abusers, and drunkards, and women chasers, and "internet fake-ordination religionists" are the only "sources" for this article. And there are myriads of people who have read here and can see right through the handful of lives that are here as well. I warned this magazine writer a long time ago that you all weren't above potentially ruining his career in sucking him into this blackest hole of darkness, but perhaps he wasn't willing to listen. The "glitter" of the article (and very likely the trap of y'alls intense flattery in his direction, I would guess) was just too good perhaps? That's a shame. People who make their beds with you all here will find out in time, I s'pose, as they always have. Acts 5:34-39 ChrisO chris.olive@comcast.net PS. One woman in Indianapolis suggested that the handful here in this coven of hate (allen, dave, dave, tim, tim, jen, dennis) are like the deranged boys on "Lord of the Flies" -- acting big and important with their sticks and self-important fake war paint. No one reading here knows, because I've stopped posting here for the most part (and you all here certainly aren't going to come clean and volunteer it), that most of the lives here we know for a settled fact have actually gotten WORSE and even MORE PERVERTED since all this started. But there's no sense continuing on about it which is why I stopped posting here. The world here has been warned about the lies and fake lives of self-established "spirituality" -- the yeast that was pushed out of the batch and rightfully so, the present dark and evil fruit being the proof of it all. :-(

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:30 pm:

In lieu of this "big thing" Cult_Fighter is all "excited" about (which is potentially a magazine article -- which I knew about entirely on my own w/o hearing about it from anyone else BTW), another friend of mine from college whom I've known and who has known me and my family for over 20 years thought it might be appropriate to provide other readers here with an email exchange that took place between this journalist and Mike Peters. (Actually, the intern of the journalist -- who was just doing his or her job -- no problem there, of course... :-)) Since it's doubtful the journalist even has room in his article for this, even if he did want to publish it, and the exchange carries with it some important information in it's original state which may or may not be conveyed in his upcoming article, my friend and I thought we would post it here for all to see. On May 31, 2007, at 2:40 PM, (intern) wrote: Mr. Peters, Hi! I'm (intern), the intern fact-checking the story that Tony wrote. I wanted to run our description of the Church In Indianapolis by you to make sure it was okay. We have that members of CII aspire to live according to the teaching of the New Testament. Also, CII members shun organized religion and, instead, worship communally in each other's homes. If that sounds good or if something needs to be changed, let me know. I will probablly be emailing you a bit later with more questions as I get further into the story. Thanks! ----------------------------- From: Michael Peters Date: June 2, 2007 8:06:32 PM EDT Subject: Re: (name of publication) Hi..... "Long time no hear" The last few days have been pretty busy with a 93-year old mother of a dear friend of 27 years (who has lived with us for four years) is on her death bed. That's had me and others at the emergency room and then in the hospital and hospice quite a lot. So, I'm back, but not really. Anyway, I'll try to answer a couple of questions quickly, in the moment I have right now. Tony and I tried to get together several times, and it never worked out. (Though I heard he startled a couple of young children at my front door when I was out of town -- and like any intelligent and "reasonably well-trained" child, they don't answer the door for strangers ).

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:31 pm:

For one, we've never referred to ourselves as "CII" and know nothing about that -- that is quite a "foreign" designation. We never needed a "name" since we are not an organization of any kind and are "nothing" more than a bunch of friends, of every walk of life and education and professional level and trade, and age. If you had a bunch of friends, Tony, that you went hiking with and skiing with often, would you need a "name" for them? Of course not. We don't have any "membership" and never have had any "membership" in the over-20-years we've been here. If a person is devoted to following Jesus with all their hearts, they are our friend and family, whether they live in Zionsville or Greenwood or Des Moines or Bombay. And apparently a couple hundred people a day who contact us, as well as co-workers all over the city, are comfortable that this has been our heart -- for nearly a quarter of a century now. We have no staff or salary or any such thing. We have no "building" or "service times" -- although we have many wonderful relationships with those who do have all of those things. It's not a hindrance or obstacle. The "issue" is whether Jesus is Lord, not anything "external" or such silliness as that. We are in weekly contact with many, many hundreds (often a couple thousand) of folks from every denomination and background imaginable. We have no barriers or prejudices against anyone who is in love with Jesus and wants to obey Him. We don't, and never have, "shunned" anyone. There are wonderful true-hearted Christians in every religious group. Those who are in our close sphere of relationships in this city come from many different backgrounds as well. Folks we are close to simply want to "live" Christianity (read Acts 2:42-47 and 1Corinthians, chapter 12) rather than read about it once a week. And, consequently, the "expression" of Life is not "meeting-based" or "clergy-based" -- but rather as Jesus said, "a hundred mothers, brothers, and sisters" living for Jesus daily, in the workplaces and neighborhoods. Just simply people who love Jesus and each other, who choose for themselves and families, to try to love and serve God, each other, and neighbors and co-workers in real ways, every day.

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:32 pm:

The world's (and religious world's) well-known statistics of "50% divorce rate" and "75% of their children with lives destroyed" (Gallop, Barna, Wilkerson, Graham, Jakes -- all with such quotes) -- this is just not acceptable, if Jesus is involved. He died, and arose, to "overcome the works of the devil" and destroy "the gates of hell" -- not to be an emotional pacifier or cultural icon. He wants to deliver everyone from sin and death. Jesus is raised from the dead and well-able to do so, if we are desirous of listening to Him and His Word, and changing. Of course when some decide not to be part of the "attendance-based" cultural religious world (as opposed to an Acts 2:36-47 and 1Corinthians 12 Life-relationship-based church), then problems arise. There are MANY good people in the religious system -- that's just the pont. They deserve every opportunity to enjoy the truths of the Bible and Teachings of Jesus with those around them, rather than unBiblical ritual, hierarchy, and powerless superstition that has often passed for Christianity since the dark ages. It's really OKAY to be honest with what the BIBLE says about Christianity (read again, if you would, 1Cor.12 and Acts 2:36-47, and see if you have ever heard of churches living like that, without listening to the excuses for why "it doesn't apply to us" ) There seems to be automatic libel and defamation thrown at anyone who WANTS to believe and live what they Bible says, and doesn't "conform to the patterns of the world" (Romans 12:1-2) -- whether religious "patterns of the world," or otherwise. Of course THEY can do whatever they want, but are stalking and hate crimes and the equivalent of sexual harassment really necessary from Tim, Tim, Dennis, Dave, Dave, and the gang -- most we've either never seen, or haven't seen for a decade since we asked them to leave? Do they have the moral or legal right to stalk, and to boast of using YOU as part of their illegal and immoral game to try to harm the lives of good citizens and professionals, PhD's and engineers and nurses and tradesmen and children and wives and grandparents? Most would claim this is a country of "religious tolerance" and "liberty," wouldn't you agree? We pride ourselves on that, from the "founding fathers" on. But YOU just try doing something different than what culture, habit, tradition, and superstition dictate -- in the workplace or religion or politics -- and see what happens to you. It's just the nature of the shallow, prideful bitterness of much of the human race, regardless of tribe or tongue. If you are not Buddhist in Thailand, you will be persecuted violently. You HAVE to do what everyone else is doing, wherever you live, don't you? If you are not Muslim in Indonesia or Pakistan, you are in deep trouble. Your wife can be raped with impunity if you are not like everyone else, religiously. Is that what our country has come to? You will be attacked in some form or fashion in every society, or mud-hut village, if you don't do what everyone else does. Is that what we've come to?

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:33 pm:

Likewise, if you attempt to do something different than the obviously-unsuccessful, and unBiblical, approach to "Christianity" that is ubiquitous in this country -- you WILL be crucified by those with something to lose and something to hide in their lives. In spite of how they are losing a full half of their marriages and 75% of their children, they fight maliciously and obsessively for status-quo and status regardless of who may even be killed by their bad "building" in their own families on their "watch." They will not tolerate anyone wanting anything other than the bad fruit they provably and admittedly have had. For the sake of the millions of honest and innocent people out there, one would THINK that everyone would be looking for Biblical answers, rather than slandering and making up malicious stories to salve their consciences for their own disastrous results. People REALLY need and deserve to see JESUS living as Jesus is, in their churches, and their lives and children and marriages to be brought into Jesus and His freedom, by His Truths. I know it's against culture and nature, but HIS ways, in the BIBLE, are right and good, and far better than man's, as can easily be evidenced by the catastrophes and hypocrisies in this world. As Einstein quipped, "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results." A quick "sanity-check" of the form of religion of the cultures of America, Thailand, and Pakistan would have us all looking for answers by changing, not doggedly protecting lukewarmness and ritual, and accusing all who ask Biblical questions about "why." Even though the violent and accusers and pretenders are being left in peace by us, for many years now, many are so indignant others are not willing to be like them, and do what they do, that they will commit whatever "hate crimes" they believe they can get away with, as revenge. These guys have boasted for many weeks now, for example, that they (some with recent criminal records, at least three with clinical mental illness, some with terrible marriages when we met them -- all folks we tried to help) have successfully duped your publication to print the libel and defamation, concocted stories, with supposed "Jim Jones" nonsense. They provide enough "detail" in their stories, knowing things they couldn't know (such as the children you, Tony, saw as you looked through my window) that when they say they have successfully duped you into defamation, it's hard not to believe their stories. As one wife, abandoned and left homeless by her degenerate abusive husband has said, this is all designed by them to get get revenge and blackmail her into ignoring his legal child support obligations. And this a man who we asked to leave when he, as others, WANTED to be amongst us, and have been recipients of tens of thousands of dollars of gifts and homes and the like. Gratitude, eh? Go figure. "No good deed goes unpunished" as the tee shirt says.

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:34 pm:

When you try to help hundreds of people who are deeply troubled emotionally, occupationally, relationally, mentally (try it sometime -- and you will experience this yourselves, and the "lightbulb" will pop on), 1) sometimes they are freed from bondage of drugs and illicit activity and mental illness, and 2) sometimes they stab you in the back with a short dagger, betrayed with a kiss, after stealing your love and possessions. I guess that's okay. Jesus did that Love thing flawlessly, and it got Him killed. We try to love unconditionally, too, regardless of the risks in this "wicked and corrupt generation" (as Jesus called it) in our own flawed ways -- and how could we expect anything different than what happened to Jesus? "No student is above his Teacher. If they hated Me, they will hate you." And, primarily it was the "religious" who extracted money, fame and fortune, and power, robbing God's People of their highest and best futures (Mat.23:13) were the ones who hated Jesus the most. As the Apostle Paul said, "It is the same now." But, in spite of all, those here just want to go on quietly trying to love and care for and live out the Teachings of Jesus, the Son of God. Those who desire that, fine. Those who don't, equally fine. We have no agenda, no ambitions, we don't "recruit," we send back every check (hundreds and many hundreds of them over time) sent to us from all over the country and the world, and ask people to invest for Jesus in their own areas. Why would we DO that, while much of religion is begging for money for themselves and their structures and ambitions? Yes, we desire to stand for and live for the Truths of what Jesus taught, no matter how unpopular or uncomfortable they may be to us, or anyone else. But, that's just a choice we've made. Everyone else can do whatever they'd like to do, of course. It's SUPPOSED to be "a free country." We've got no animosity or barriers, and the proof of that lies in the many fabulous relationships we have in this country and worldwide, with no desire to "change" or "recruit" anyone, for over two decades now. When Augusta wrote us under a falsified name (Andrea) and pretended to be "a young professional woman" -- no one tried to recruit her or do anything other than encourage her to love and obey Jesus where she lived, wherever that was she claimed in her deceitful letter. No one knew it was her, but it didn't matter. She was not recruited, nor is ANYONE.

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:38 pm:

People we've asked to leave, as the Bible demands, later lie, re-write history, and call names -- but they WANTED to be here, and we asked THEM to leave? Tell me that makes sense. You know that has to be dishonest. But, we have no ax to grind with anyone. They can go on with their lives and we wish the best for them. We still have relationships with over 50% of those we've asked to leave, even. And, this all has nothing to do with "us" anyway. I'm not anyone. No one here claims to be anyone, or even WANTS anything from anyone. It's just folks wanting to peacefully love Jesus, and enjoy each other, as in Acts 2:36-47 and 1Cor.12. It's simple and Biblical. No show, no budget, no ritual, no hierarchy or staff, no titles, no bosses, no positions other than everyone loving Jesus as best they can. Just ordinary people with no pretense or ambition for anything other than a simple love of Jesus. And, as I said, folks all over the world from every background apparently have the same heart for "Just Jesus, pure and simple, without pomp and circumstance, bells and whistles, bubble gum, or bailing wire, or clergy or budgets, or rules, nor any dress-up for a show. Just the quality of Life of Jesus, the King of Glory, as best we can. Helping each other, our children, our children's children, and anyone else interested, as best we can. Just love and sacrifice as best we can, for the short lives we have." Not real complicated, but obviously quite hated for the "stalkers" to be calling family members and spouses trying to pit family members against each other, manufacturing lies, twisting reality, obsessive libelous lunatic internet behavior, deadbeat and alcoholic rampages, and the like. But, life goes on. Gosta go.... Headed back to the hospital for awhile, for "grandma". Sorry I didn't have time to proofread this for run-ons, fragments, typos, or general silliness. But, gotta go. And, "mike" will do, rather than "mister" something. With respect, mike www.AllAtHisFeet.com The bottom-line challange is this: Talk is cheap. You cut a bar of gold in half with a saw and it's gold through and through. You cut a brick spray-painted to look like "gold" and, if your saw doesn't break first (after they "bluff" and ask you to cut it knowing most people won't take the time nor the effort to dig into something), you'll find worthless brick on the inside. THAT'S the challange that is still out there... But most will believe the "sensation" created by the jealous, angry, vengeful Jews (Acts 17:5-8) or the angry silversmith Demetrius (or a roughly equivalent internet "wordsmith" eager to be seen as a "hero") (Acts 18:23-34) and just "go along" with whatever is said. "Demetrius said it... The Jewish leaders said it, so it must be true..." :-( The world hasn't changed much, unfortunately. :-( ChrisO

Username: chriso

Posted on Tuesday, June 12, 2007 - 11:58 pm:

Jen: I stopped going "back and forth" here with all the senseless "bluffing" and postulating you, Tim and Allen have been doing here for over a year now on who I know and don't know. You know good and well who I know and don't know. Regardless of what you and your husband "postulate" I do know Dennis and observed him and his character and the way he carried himself in many, many situations. Let's put it this way... I observed his "character" at the time and the way he exited Indianapolis (again, myself being the only person out of 275 that watched him leave the apartment complex) well enough to keep a look out for him for 15 years. I knew he was going to strike out in revenge based on what he was like then based on the mere fact he didn't get his way. He's been in a rage ever since, again regardless here of how he "paints" it. The only surprise to me was that it took 15 years. All the while he was being left alone by others, he was privately seething (and you with him). You came here to slander someone else who saw through you two (by your own admission), so this is STILL your M.O. as it was then. But that was predictable a long, long, long time ago, Jen. (And we don't need to go into that pathetic newspaper article thing again... It was NOT posted by anyone in the churches being persecuted here! Period!) As for the rest, again, what I've stated about who I know and don't know is 100% accurate. But again, you already know that and are still postulating, twisting, lying, and contorting here as you have been for over a year now. Let's stop playing games, Jen. I'll be more than happy to speak and provide ample evidence of who I know and don't know in the proper settings and when the proper motives are discernably involved. "Proper motives" by the way has a lot to do with what does happen and doesn't happen, regardless of how you "paint" things here regarding me or anyone else in those churches. That is the rub afterall, isn't it? These are people who aren't "duped" and that's why all this is happening. Gotta go, Jen. You don't have the right nor the power to sap me of energy needed far more in other places by endless arguing and answering all your bluffing and postulating (and false love and humility) here. :-( (And that's another reason all this has come about -- people didn't and still don't have the ENDLESS TIME for all this game playing and fake paper mache' lives, as Mike pointed out in his email to the journalist.) Take care... ChrisO

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